Causes and Effects of the London/England Riots

The fact that these riots have broken out again after 30 years of tribute-paying to those areas just shows what a mistake the socialist welfare "cure" is. No society in history has given as much to help the poor up, or to lift up ethnic minorities, criminals, disadvantaged people etc. Far from being a panacea, this generous assistance appears not to have made the slightest improvement at all. Must we go on paying welfare, or even foolishly increase it, when it is seen not to work?

Indeed! Now we can clearly see that social democracy is nothing but a sham, a rotten cane propping up the sickly spectre of capitalism. It is only a step above charity as a tool to keep the poor and destitute locked in their place, a crumbling dressing over a festering wound.

It's time to do away with the pretentions of humanity and the milquetoast call to complacency. It's time to finally give individuals the power over their own destinies. Down with liberals! Down with the underhanded slavery of handouts!

With me, comrades. In spirit and in song.

"Debout, les damnés de la terre
Debout, les forçats de la faim
La raison tonne en son cratère
C'est l'éruption de la fin
Du passé faisons table rase
Foule esclave, debout, debout
Le monde va changer de base
Nous ne sommes rien, soyons tout..."
 
The fact that these riots have broken out again after 30 years of tribute-paying to those areas just shows what a mistake the socialist welfare "cure" is.

It's never been intended as a cure. The idea is that it represents a safety net.

And, more to the point, the welfare state has little to do with these riots. The spark was discontent with the police, and the fuel was the appearance that the police response was failing.

No society in history has given as much to help the poor up, or to lift up ethnic minorities, criminals, disadvantaged people etc.

No society in history? The UK isn't even close to being the most socialist state in Europe today, let alone in the world ever.

Far from being a panacea, this generous assistance appears not to have made the slightest improvement at all. Must we go on paying welfare, or even foolishly increase it, when it is seen not to work?

But it does work. The unemployed, the elderly and the disabled receive the support they need to survive. Those in ill-health, or who suffer accidents, are attended to by our still-remarkable (and almost universally popular) national health service. Various other services actively assist or empower people to improve their own lives.

There are undoubtedly areas where more needs to be done, and others where major reform is needed. Welfare dependency is a very real problem, for example. But if you think that removing these safety-nets would prevent riots from breaking out, then you have no grasp of why their introduction was tolerated in the first place: in the long-term, the likely alternative was open resistance and, potentially, revolution.
 
Yeah, I mean if tribute-paying doesn't work then the obvious solution is to just round them all up and put them in strictly-controlled camps, right? Kinda like the strategic hamlet program. That'll work.

Moderator Action: Not helpful.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14583562

Currently, over 100 people per day are being sent to prison for rioting, with a rise in prison population of over 1000 compared to last week.

The Prison Service is developing "contingency plans" to deal with this swell, though there are only about 3000 places in prisons left.
 
aelf, I can't believ some people are posting about 'white people' becomign 'black' and foreign music beign evil. I thought the SS had been quashed, not absorbed by the Allies.
 
It's either the welfare state or fascism. Brilliant discourse.. :sad:
 
It's never been intended as a cure. The idea is that it represents a safety net.

That is just one perspective on what the welfare State is, and unfortunately it is not the way the most vocal proponents of social reform see it.

Many people think welfare can be used to re-engineer society in various ways - for example, paying for more university places for minorities/women, increasing upward mobility, prioritising training on poor areas, building youth clubs, providing government jobs to artificially inflate the size of the middle class etc.

The way welfare is perceived, and the social ends to which it is deployed, can be complex. So for many people, and for many government projects, they are designed to "cure" various social ills rather than simply limiting themselves to a social safety net.




And just to clarify an earlier comment, I meant that no society in British history has been so generous in helping the poor, disadvantaged etc. Yet there has been no let-up in the left-wing criticism telling us how evil, greedy, selfish etc capitalism is.

We've given the "left/liberals" almost everything they asked for since the 60s - in many ways, they have been given even more. Yet where is the great society they so omnisciently predicted? Now they tell us we need to keep giving and giving, that the giving doesn't work because we are too selfish and greedy - there is surely a disconnect considering how much has been done to help disadvantaged people in this society - at what great expense it was done, for seemingly no avail.

Moderator Action: The last two paragraphs are an excellent example of how conversations get derailed. This goes for everyone, not just Ayn: please avoid broad generalizations about "the right wants this" or "the left wants that." These sort of comments are not conducive to a healthy discussion. Please avoid them.
 
This video was released from the riots -

Link to video.
So, the riots may have been sparked by perceived social injustice, but I'm still of the opinion that the rioters mostly are made up of political extremists who find purpose in their extremism and pure criminals taking advantage of the situation.
 
This video was released from the riots -

Link to video.
So, the riots may have been sparked by perceived social injustice, but I'm still of the opinion that the rioters mostly are made up of political extremists who find purpose in their extremism and pure criminals taking advantage of the situation.

"You're of the opinion" that they're political extremists.

No political extremists in the UK own firearms (except maybe the Paras in NI)
 
This video was released from the riots -

Link to video.
So, the riots may have been sparked by perceived social injustice, but I'm still of the opinion that the rioters mostly are made up of political extremists who find purpose in their extremism and pure criminals taking advantage of the situation.
And you base this on the acts of one individual firing what appears to be a flare gun, based on the amount of smoke that came out of the barrel?
 
"You're of the opinion" that they're political extremists.

No political extremists in the UK own firearms (except maybe the Paras in NI)
Yes, I believe that until I see evidence pointing in another direction. ..political extremists and/or criminals...

How sure are you that no political extremists in the UK own firearms? Criminals can't be extremists?
 
Yes, I believe that until I see evidence pointing in another direction. ..political extremists and/or criminals...

So your default stance on things is to believe in something for no evidence until you see evidence otherwise? Wow. That says a lot.
 
So your default stance on things is to believe in something for no evidence until you see evidence otherwise? Wow. That says a lot.
You may believe it's innocent youths fighting for a better society with as little evidence. Let's say I rely on "proven experience" and common sense of human nature when facts are missing.

And you base this on the acts of one individual firing what appears to be a flare gun, based on the amount of smoke that came out of the barrel?
No, I probably base my beliefs through a greater perspective than most. This is just on of many acts and one that I won't try to excuse or explain away for my own convenience.


I hope it's ok to post reports and videos from "the other perspective". The reporting has a tendency of getting very narrow-minded.
 
You may believe it's innocent youths fighting for a better society with as little evidence.

I didn't say I believe that.

Loppan Torkel said:
Let's say I rely on "proven experience" and common sense of human nature when facts are missing.

What "proven experience"? And what is common sense of human nature exactly?

Loppan Torkel said:
I hope it's ok to post reports and videos from "the other perspective". The reporting has a tendency of getting very narrow-minded.

Have you been reading the thread or any of the other threads on this subject?
 
I didn't say I believe that.
You didn't, but do you not believe it? Otherwise what do you believe? I've seen you raving about injustices, white-collars escaping punishment for crimes and contempt for the elite and law-enforcement, but it would be interesting to hear what you think of the rioters.
What "proven experience"? And what is common sense of human nature exactly?
It's what you learn by interacting with other people and see in your everyday life. ..In contrast to elaborate and many times unproven (and sometimes failed) theories. I do believe that different aspects of society influence individuals and vice versa, but when most explanations that are reported lay the blame on society I tend to see those explanations as excuses for individuals. In my mind there's a mutual responsibility.
Have you been reading the thread or any of the other threads on this subject?
Yes, I have.
 
You didn't, but do you not believe it? Otherwise what do you believe? I've seen you raving about injustices, white-collars escaping punishment for crimes and contempt for the elite and law-enforcement, but it would be interesting to hear what you think of the rioters.

I didn't "rave" about those things (I should probably mention your actual paranoid raving about armed extremists - that's more like a raving). I pointed them out as some of the underlying causes that shouldn't be ignored. But, otherwise, I've also acknowledged that the causes for the riots are pretty complex. I also referred to what the rioters did as "criminal acts".

Loppan Torkel said:
It's what you learn by interacting with other people and see in your everyday life. In contrast to elaborate and many times unproven (and sometimes failed) theories.Yes, I have.

So your experience interacting with other people tells you that there are armed extremists looking for opportunities to exploit to create mayhem?

Loppan Torkel said:
Yes, I have.

Then your comment about the reporting being one-sided makes no sense. Even if you don't look at British news, you can find articles and commentaries quoted in these threads where you can see right-wing perspectives on the riots.
 
I didn't "rave" about those things (I could also talk about your actual paranoid raving about armed extremists - that's more like a raving). I pointed them out as some of the underlying causes that shouldn't be ignored. But, otherwise, I've also acknowledged that the causes for the riots are pretty complex.
..but you won't give your opinion of the rioters?
So your experience interacting with other people tells you that there are armed extremists looking for opportunities to exploit to create mayhem?
I didn't say that and I'll quit this argument now.
Then your comment about the reporting being one-sided makes no sense. Even if you don't look at British news, you can see articles and commentaries quoted in these threads where you can see right-wing perspectives on the riots.
Sure, there have been a few, but as always it's been fairly one sided. And when a video like this, in contrast to a more "excusing" video, is posted, it is instantly questioned. Most of the things posted are theories or snap shots of the events. Nothing describes them fully. Not this video and not mistakes by individual policemen.
 
..but you won't give your opinion of the rioters?

Look again. I've referred to what the rioters did as "criminal acts".

Loppan Torkel said:
I didn't say that and I'll quit this argument now.

But, posting a video about shots being fired at the police, you said that the video leads you to the conclusion that "the rioters mostly are made up of political extremists who find purpose in their extremism and pure criminals taking advantage of the situation" and later claimed that your experience interacting with other people substantiates this opinion. I just want to know how your experience substantiates it.

Loppan Torkel said:
Sure, there have been a few, but as always it's been fairly one sided. And when a video like this, in contrast to a more "excusing" video, is posted, it is instantly questioned. Most of the things posted are theories or snap shots of the events. Nothing describes them fully. Not this video and not mistakes by individual policemen.

Your video isn't questioned. The weird conclusion you draw is.
 
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