[RD] CFC Constitutional Convention

Amendable, sure. But the core of it was never intended to be completely and radically changed, only tweaked here and there. That's why the Founding Fathers made the process for amendments and calling another Constitutional Convention so damn difficult.



No. That is just a fancy way of saying the US should be governed by mob rule.

Its really not, funny how the line between mob rule and having a government that actually represents its people's will is so thin for you. We have this concept called the rule of law that prohibits actual mob rule. Changing the laws is difficult, the idea of a constitutional convention is difficult. It is telling that so many speak of the idea with some enthusiasm at this point in history. Its indicative that the government isn't actually doing a good job representing the "mob" that puts it in power.
 
Two additional things:

Voting age 15, so that you do it at least once during school as that's the only institution cutting across the whole society to truly raise participation. Otherwise, voting is something handed down in your family (how to vote? how to debate) or social circle. And if your circle is already very apathetic, then good luck to ever learning how to.

And mail-in voting. Not electronic - maybe if they ever get to make it secure - , but postal letters. You shouldn't have to wait in line to perform your right to vote.
 
Amendable, sure. But the core of it was never intended to be completely and radically changed, only tweaked here and there.

If anything, this is an argument in favor of tossing the whole thing altogether. The government they designed doesn't seem to work in the modern world, and it really shouldn't be expected to.

I don't really understand why we should be beholden to what some guys came up with 230 years ago as a system of governance. I doubt they, themselves, would think that it's prudent to keep their constitution even if doing so means keeping in place a broken system of government.

Political sorting has left our constitution functionally impossible to amend. That is not a good thing.
 
Wasn't Thomas Jefferson quite clear that he wanted there to be a new Constitutional Convention every 50 years at most in order to draft a whole new Constitution for every generation?

(Of course, he was an Anti-Federalist who recognized that the Constitution that came from the last convention was a deeply flawed document, worse than the Articles of Confederation, which centralized power more than he would like and which once ratified should be followed strictly lest people use vague interpretations to allow even more centralized power than it authorized.)
 
I don't really understand why we should be beholden to what some guys came up with 230 years ago as a system of governance. I doubt they, themselves, would think that it's prudent to keep their constitution even if doing so means keeping in place a broken system of government.

At least one of them is on record stating that the form of government should change over time and that "the Earth belongs in usufruct to the living." So of course it is nonsense to say that those guys didn't want the Constitution to be changed in any major way. Even if it were true, it wouldn't matter. And of course, to top it all the Constitutional order has already gone through several major changes that mean it bears almost no resemblance to what the framers set up in the 18th century, the most important of these being the Reconstruction Amendments (14th in particular).
 
I've tossed around the idea of whether we can assume that a citizen is qualified to vote, based solely on their age. Mostly I think the answer is no, which is my main argument against mandatory voting. If somebody is uninformed, and doesn't care enough to read a newspaper the week before an election, I don't want them to vote, and if they decide to recuse themselves, I think that's probably for the best. The people who are not well-informed but choose to vote anyway are a conundrum (as are the people who are, but don't), but I don't like the idea of the state deciding who votes and who doesn't. I've fantasized about some kind of quick quiz that a local high-school teacher could score in 10 seconds while you're standing in line, but that probably raises some questions that I haven't figured out the answer to. Merely being 'institutionalized' shouldn't disqualify you from voting, imo. I suppose there are probably cognitive disorders that make a person incapable of understanding issues, or how the US government works, or whatever, but we don't require that healthy people have any understanding of those things in order to vote. I do agree that prisoners should be allowed to vote, fwiw.

It's not about understanding the issues or being uninformed, it's about the fact that most of the people in institutions for a mental disorder are there because their disorder is so severe that they have trouble understanding what is real and what isn't. Allowing people who merely don't understand the political issues to vote is a whole different thing than allowing people who struggle to comprehend reality itself to vote.

And I agree that merely being institutionalized should not disqualify one from voting, however I do think they should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis before being allowed to vote.

And mail-in voting. Not electronic - maybe if they ever get to make it secure - , but postal letters. You shouldn't have to wait in line to perform your right to vote.

Why not allow both mail-in and in person voting like a lot of states already do? It would seem maximizing the number of ways a person can vote would be the best option.
 
A lot of the current conspiracy theories are that the Repugs have been pushing towards one while they control the government so they can make the country what they truly want it to be. Where they could continue in power for many decades. One that most of us would probably find abhorrent. So I'm willing to wait for the demographics to provide the lever for reassuring control before opening that box.

I too would like a way to limit voting to those that have a clue, but have been unable to come up with a method that could not be used to discriminate those that people in power would like to disenfranchise.
 
And I agree that merely being institutionalized should not disqualify one from voting, however I do think they should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis before being allowed to vote.
Right, that's kind of how I feel about everybody, but it's probably impractical, prone to abuse, etc.

Why not allow both mail-in and in person voting like a lot of states already do? It would seem maximizing the number of ways a person can vote would be the best option.
Yesterday I heard on a radio program that Colorado just mails everybody a mail-in ballot. I'm not sure if there's a down side to that, I didn't listen to whole program, but at first glance, I don't know why every state doesn't do that.
 
I have a lot of thoughts on this, but some quick ones:

1) Voting is an absolute right which cannot be abrogated from any eligible voter for any reason.
-All citizens (and possibly all permanent residents - haven't decided on this one yet) over the age of 18 are eligible to vote in Federal Elections
-All citizens, permanent residents, and residents with a visa whose duration will extend beyond the date of the next election are eligible to vote in the State and Local elections of their established residence
-Voting day is held on a weekend day, where every eligible voter is guaranteed by their employer 4 hours of paid time-off to vote (in the circumstance that they are working on voting day).
-All citizens are automatically enrolled to vote. A national website will run which allows voters to indicate preferred voting method (in-person or by-mail) and register with a convenient polling place (if in-person) up to 7 days before election.
-All citizens will officially receive a citizenship-ID number and accompanying card. This card must be presented at the polling place to vote (if in-person)
-Voting is not mandatory, however, voting registration is opt-out, rather than opt-in.

2) Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands; and Guam, American Samoa, and the Northern Marianas will perform an in/out referendum, with a simple majority decided pass/fail. Either of the two entities will be granted immediate statehood upon pass, with fail triggering mechanisms for a smooth transition to independence. DC gains full statehood. Break up California, either into 3 or 5 states. NYC/Long Island becomes an independent state.

Some other things I might get to later:
-House is heavily expanded, and districts are combined to allow for STV-style voting
-Senate is heavily expanded to allow for the same.
-Term limits for congress and senate
-Heavy restrictions on campaigning periods, all funding is fixed and federally provided. Possible restrictions on equal coverage time from media outlets
-All congresspeople need to hold at least one town hall, open to the general public (no restrictions placed except in the case of credible threats of violence) in a location that is reasonably accessible to his electorate. Town hall is to be filmed, with livestreams free and available to the public.
-Supreme court is expanded, with mandatory term limits for justices. Possibly a stricter process for nomination, i.e. bipartisan congressional/senate committee prepares and delivers a list of acceptable candidates from which the president nominates one, or else clear and explicit eligibility requirements (i.e. experience/credentials requirements). Terms are staggered so every presidential term gets 2 nominations, possibly with a second or understudy nominated in the event of a death-in-office. Nomination period has a clear timeline for acceptance. Unclear how to implement this in practice. Perhaps if senate and president cannot come to agreement within a given timeframe, the court or the retiring judge picks his successor. Possibly even remove nomination/confirmation process altogether and have judicial appointments follow standard bureaucratic practices (i.e. promote most senior/qualified justice from circuit courts).
-There should be some oversight committee/bureau in both federal and state/local governments tasked with reviewing a law before it is approved to ensure it is in keeping with established statute/constitution/constitutional precedent. The current (Republican) state-level policy of passing a law which is clearly unconstitutional, and which the state legislature knows is unconstitutional because they know that by the time the bill gets shot down the desired effect will already have occurred rendering the overturning moot is disgusting.
Here I am talking specifically about:
a) Voter restriction laws, e.g. in North Dakota or North Carolina or George, passed just before the election to disenfranchise specific groups ahead of the upcoming election. It doesn't matter if the law is overturned in 2019 when the disenfranchisement already achieved its intended effect in 2018.
b) Anti-abortion laws, namely ones that place undue "safety" requirements on abortion clinics which either force the clinic to close outright (e.g. "minimum distance from a school" requirements or "outpatient care requirements") or drive them out of business due to excessive medical equipment costs (e.g. room size or hallway width requirements and the like). It doesn't matter if the Supreme Court determined the state was wrong to pass the law when the law already drove 66% of the abortion clinics out of business. Absent a mandate that the state pay to have these clinics reopened, they ain't coming back.

Rights/Civil Rights/Human Rights issues:
Health care is a fundamental human right. Government has an obligation to provide health care, whether as a single payer or as a public option - I'd prefer the former, obviously.
Anti-discrimination clause amended to prohibit discrimination on the basis of: age, religion, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender orientation, or socio-economic background.
Minimum wage established tacked to a predefined quality-of-life standard.
Paid parental leave
Stronger unionization protections
Just general labor protections
Copyrights fixed to 40-50 years with no possibility of renewal.
Education is a fundamental human right. Federal government runs/oversees school standards. Homeschooling/private schools allowed, but required to teach to educational standards, children required to sit for federally-administered end-of-year exams.
Public Universities are tuition-free, possibly with citizens receiving a stipend to defray some of the cost of attending a private institution or overseas/out-of-country institution. Eligibility for attending any university in the US is decided through a federally-administered exam taken at the end of age-17 school year.
Private and for-profit prisons are banned.
Mandatory or unpaid prison labor is banned.
Prison labor which serves as work-experience for a training program is allowed.

At a state level I'd like to see some kind of restriction on a city's ability to give away large amounts of money in the form of tax handouts, loans, etc. to corporations without a clear monetary value. This is in part an i.e. something like Vegas giving $300M to the Oakland Raiders for a new stadium when stadium deals have been shown to never offset their costs, or the city of New York giving away millions of dollars to Amazon to build a headquarters when they, in all likelihood, were going to build one in that city anyway, or else the city of Chicago offering to grant Amazon discretionary use of its employees' local tax contributions. At the very least, these sorts of deals should require a public referendum before they are allowed to be approved.
 
And mail-in voting. Not electronic - maybe if they ever get to make it secure - , but postal letters. You shouldn't have to wait in line to perform your right to vote.

In my opinion, mail voting is too much prone to abuse, so it shouldn't be encouraged.

Having to wait (long) in a line to vote isn't something that is supposed to happen in a first-world democracy anyway.
 
In the more prosperous areas, there is usually only a delay at 6 in the morning and 6 in the evening.
It's in less prosperous areas where there is a problem, and that is usually by design. :(

-All citizens will officially receive a citizenship-ID number and accompanying card. This card must be presented at the polling place to vote (if in-person)

and while this sounds reasonable and I agree, many that have suggested this are shouted down as racists.
 
I think the problem of long lines would be eliminated if elections were managed federally with automatic registration and clear requirements on number of polling places per voter and voting machines per voter. The problem of lines comes when one polling place is expected to handle tens of thousands of voters and that polling place has only a couple of voting machines. Plus the US schedules its elections on Tuesdays, doesn’t make that day a federal holiday, and only allows for unpaid time-off for voting, meaning basically everyone tries to get their voting in either in the morning before they have to go to work, or in the evening after they get off work. If you remove those stresses, voting would run much more smoothly in this country.

Also obviously electronic voting should be disallowed.

and while this sounds reasonable and I agree, many that have suggested this are shouted down as racists.

This is racist precisely because there is no national-ID system. The Voter-ID laws are rightly identified as end-arounds for racially motivated disenfranchisement because they place a burden on the individual to go get an acceptable form of identification which a) costs money and b) isn't always logistically easy for the type of person who will need to go get an ID. The tell here is that the people calling for Voter-ID laws are also the same people who will vehemently argue against the implementation of a national-ID system.

Germany requires ID to vote. France requires ID to vote. The Netherlands requires ID to vote. Mexico requires ID to vote. The difference is these countries have a system of national identification in place which is accessible and cheap (in some cases free) for all its citizens to obtain easily.
 
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This is racist precisely because there is no national-ID system. The Voter-ID laws are rightly identified as end-arounds for racially motivated disenfranchisement because they place a burden on the individual to go get an acceptable form of identification which a) costs money and b) isn't always logistically easy for the type of person who will need to go get an ID. The tell here is that the people calling for Voter-ID laws are also the same people who will vehemently argue against the implementation of a national-ID system.

While I couldn't agree in principle any more, no matter how easy people have tried to make it to get an ID, they still get yelled down as racists. I have personally heard it many times. I personally don't see a problem and support a national ID. That would also be used for voting.
 
no matter how easy people have tried to make it to get an ID, they still get yelled down as racists. I have personally heard it many times. I personally don't see a problem and support a national ID. That would also be used for voting.

Who has tried to make getting an ID easy?
 
based on reading thread here. Even when it's hypothetical. But I am cynical enough to realize that there are those that would take advantage of it. I'm just stating my agreement with the theory under the assumption it could actually be done better. In reality, I've hear some good methods and some real bad ones.
 
Why not allow both mail-in and in-person voting like a lot of states already do? It would seem maximizing the number of ways a person can vote would be the best option.

Sure, the more ways the merrier. It's about lowering barriers. In that sense, I even approve of e-voting since it may make it possible for a citizen to vote who lives far off from any reliable postal service or who has trouble with the other two ways (in person, per mail). But e-voting shouldn't be applied comprehensively.

In my opinion, mail voting is too much prone to abuse, so it shouldn't be encouraged.

Having to wait (long) in a line to vote isn't something that is supposed to happen in a first-world democracy anyway.

I do it around four times a year on the postal way and have never had a problem. There have also not been any reported problems. There is the occasional guy fishing envelopes out of mailboxes and people going around nursing homes but these are all very quickly found out. There are a lot of safety tricks on the mail ballots, from identification numbers (on the envelope, not on the voting card) to plausibility checks to inter-party commissions. Now of course we Swiss are experts since we do it so often and routine really is the key here. But there's no reason to fear mailing ballots to be unsafe. (Now I wouldn't say that about e-voting)
 
I do it around four times a year on the postal way and have never had a problem. There have also not been any reported problems. There is the occasional guy fishing envelopes out of mailboxes and people going around nursing homes but these are all very quickly found out. There are a lot of safety tricks on the mail ballots, from identification numbers (on the envelope, not on the voting card) to plausibility checks to inter-party commissions. Now of course we Swiss are experts since we do it so often and routine really is the key here. But there's no reason to fear mailing ballots to be unsafe. (Now I wouldn't say that about e-voting)

I am not so much concerned about the safety of the vote, but much more about the secrecy of the vote. It is much easier to pressure someone into voting in a certain way, when you can verify how they are voting.
 
This would be exploited incessantly by Russia et al. What I mean is that in every election they'll get it on the ballot through paid operatives - as they have done in California already. At least one of the ballot initiatives to split California recently was bankrolled ultimately by Russia. Giving the ability to simply, cleanly and quickly break up the union by direct vote would be a national catastrophe - at least and until our society figures out a way to deal with social media propaganda.

You probably know I have a thing for small states, or rather against large ones, and won't try to explain it )again) here. Just want to say that you are underestimating both people's conservativeness in this, and their ability to thing carefully before such a big decision. The UK had a referendum on scottish independence and the separatists lost, this on a place with a very large separatist party that governs the "state". In Catalonia in Spain I suspect that had the government in Madrid done a similar referendum it would have gotten away with proposing just some more devolution of powers.

And second that whole thing about making sure votes are done in a way that can be audited by any watcher. All kinds of electronic voting or vote by mail are recipes for undermining a democracy. Exceptions would only be a reasonable compromise for those people absolutely unable to go to a polling station. How can a modern country not make sure its elections happen on a day when people are guaranteed to have some free time to vote?
 
Which is illegal and punished accordingly. It's a very risky behaviour since it always gets out if you want to do it on a large scale. Even 10-20 (say a football club or a nursing home) is very risky and won't have any effect. If you refer to the discussions happening in the family, such as the wife making the husband vote x, I have to concede that that could very well happen, but I don't see it connected to voting via mail. Since would you really lie to your partner when he/she asks you what you voted? And if you do, I would have concerns about the marriage in any case... ;)

But I guess the arguments to this debate can be found on the internet elsewhere, no need to rehash them.
 
Why do you want to abolish prison labour.

As long as it is voluntary, paid and does not unfairly compete with normal business then I can not see what is wrong.
It will help to pass the time and could help to provide skills.
@Timsup2nothin what do you think.

https://theclinkcharity.org/the-clink-restaurants/cardiff-wales/

I missed this. The trick is that "compete unfairly with normal business" part. I can tell you that the vast majority of government offices in the US, at every level of government, are furnished with furniture made by Unicore Prison Industries. If Unicore took to marketing to the public the stereotypical IKEA furniture would be gone overnight, because we made better furniture and it could be sold a lot cheaper, since the highest grade employees in a Unicore factory make $0.96 an hour...plus room and board provided by the taxpayers, of course.

Everyone in federal prison has a job, unless they refuse. If you refuse you get subsistence pay, based on being able to use the canteen facilities to keep you in toothpaste and a couple other things deemed necessities that aren't provided and you get tossed into the 'indigent unit' where such commodities as radios, snacks, tennis shoes...anything not provided...are contraband. Inmates in the indigent unit are not allowed to receive money from outside.

For most of my time I worked in the grounds department. I was responsible for a patch of grass about the size of a suburban lawn and the hedge that separated it from the main sidewalk coming out of the administration building. I checked in at the grounds office every morning and at the end of the work day. Once a week or so I would check out a push mower to cut the grass, and a clipper to snip anything that tried to get out of place from my hedge. I did the lawn and the hedge on the other side of the sidewalk at the same time. The old guy who was assigned to that spent his time in the grounds office playing cards and he paid me ten bucks a month to go with the twenty I made on the job. If I was caught in my cubicle during "work hours" I would get written up and put in the hole, in theory I'd also get written up if I got caught in the gym, library, or rec yard without a pass during work hours, but that was just a theory.

Workers for the factory are found just like they are found anywhere...competitive pay for the wage slaves. I went to work in the factory making 24 cents an hour, and rapidly advanced to the top grade at 96 cents an hour. I put in about a hundred hours a month of overtime at time and a half, and half my pay went to fines and restitution, so I netted about $150 bucks a month...which put me at the top of the economic food chain. I paid a guy to do my laundry. I paid a guy to clean my cubicle. I did my own cooking, because I had an established cooking hustle before I started at the factory that a lot of my friends subscribed to and I enjoyed it, but I paid two "prep cooks" to do all the chopping and stuff so my cooking hustle went from supporting me to operating at a loss. I always felt like people who worked at the factory had a responsibility to distribute the money as widely as possible rather than just eat it all in cookies and chips.
 
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