Ilium
Humanist
I know, I was in a state of shock because the number was so low-- too low. Thats why I want to know where he got his information.
China and Japan: The coming conflict
- Thread starter Azadre
- Start date
In contrast, the number of people who died in the nuclear bomb in Hiroshima (counting both those who died immediately and those killed by radiation related illnesses afterwards was about 90 000).
http://www.warbirdforum.com/hirodead.htm
According to here:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nagasaki.htm
87 000 died in the bomb at Nagasaki.
The deaths in Nanking alone which in many cases involved rape and torture were on the same level or greater than the total number of deaths in Japan from the two nuclear bombs. In a sense of irony, Hiroshima and Nagasaki had many Chinese and Korean slave labourers (they were literally slaves) who died in the blast. The survivors weren't even invited to attend official ceremonies until recently.
http://www.warbirdforum.com/hirodead.htm
According to here:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nagasaki.htm
87 000 died in the bomb at Nagasaki.
The deaths in Nanking alone which in many cases involved rape and torture were on the same level or greater than the total number of deaths in Japan from the two nuclear bombs. In a sense of irony, Hiroshima and Nagasaki had many Chinese and Korean slave labourers (they were literally slaves) who died in the blast. The survivors weren't even invited to attend official ceremonies until recently.
Dann said:
Hmm, I was referring to civfilians....mabye that book I read was only referring to a single city or something. I'll recheck my book. (Which, although very isolationist, has seemed to be fairly accurate other than that figure)
Regardless, it's safe to say China coldly killed more people that Japan.
Mao killed tens of millions millions to create a "Greater China". Tojo killed millions to create a "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere". I fail to see how Mao was any better. He was worse.
stratego
Trying to be good.
Elrohir said:
The famine which killed the most under Mao was due to lack of scientific knowledge not evil intent. During the Great Leap Forward everybody was trying to drastically increase output grains. Each village bidded to produce an exceptional amount of grain, and planted more stalks per acre than the land could handle. As a result the grains couldn't grow and the famine resulted.
Saying that Mao's Great Leap Forward was aimed at killing Chinese civilians would be like saying NASA built the Challenger with the intention of killing the astronaunts. Was he responsible for it, yes. But was his intent evil, NO.
And if you look at the any book that has info on the number of deaths under Mao, they always say "Including famine, war and execution" but never just "execution" because that number would be very low-in the thousands (only rape, murder and treason was punishable by death). The CCP form of punishment at the time was to have you kneel on the street with a sign of your crime.
Desmond Hawkins
Deity
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Dann said:And his evaluation was right too. Too bad he wasn't as efficient enforcing his will.
As someone who lives in mainland China, can't you get in trouble for saying things like this on-line?
I have always noticed you do a very fine job of speaking objectively without overtly "undermining" the regime, but this is the first time I have noticed you say anything pro-Chiang.
luiz said:
But still there are tens of thousands more internet cafe in China. Yes, they are still controlling the media but as they open up, the are flush with too much information to control, China is going to have the world largest internet community soon, even gaming companies like Blizzard are setting special servers for them.
The CPC knows that they cannot control everything, but still they wanted some control, the cafes are actually closed 1) becoz they are illegal without license 2) sincve they are not license, they are using pirated softwares (this is advocate by the western companies) 3) Failed fire safety design (this is the main reason the give actaully after a fire kill most of the customers in an illegal internet cafe sometime back.
The Chinese in China's main cities have more access than most westerners than u think. they are actually flooding the internet band of all the neighbouring countries even those as far as Singapore. As a Singaporen and admin of a server, i have quite an idea of the number of Chinese visiting it. So this actually tells how much access they are given really.
Therefore, before commenting, i think more should make the efforts to understand the country and its situation. Its not as bad as u guys think. make a trip and go there for a holiday and ya know.
Ramius75 said:
Actually only a very very small minority in China has access to the Internet or western media. Despite massive economic growth in the last decade, the chinese per capita income is still below many poor nations.
The overwhelming majority of the chinese could never afford luxuries such as a cyber cafe. 70% of the population still lives in rural areas, with aboslutely no access to modern paraphernalia and, most importantly, dissenting voices.
It's a sad reality, but the majority of chinese only has access to government-approved media.
I'm afraid people like Dann, who enjoy western comfort and even some degrees of freedom are only a very tiny minority in Red China. There is progress going on China, no doubt, but it's basically economic progress that resulted from the great potential of China finally released from the claws of Maoism.
Shaihulud
Deity
Mao is actually looked upon quite favourably in China so please don't compare him with Hitler or even Stalin. The sad fact is that before the communist takeover, people in China were starving under the Nationalist government. Many Chinese actually thinks the Communist government was a change for the better. If Mao had been as bad as you think he is he would be badmouthed more over in China, and yes they r allowed to badmouth him.
luiz said:
The percentage of Chinese getting foriegn media and internet access are on the rise. even with 30% of the population, most in the cities and minor cities do have access to foreign program, for example, Channel News Asia, a Singapore News network are being broadcast in most China Cities, thou only on cables but thats a start. Just Like only in Singapore, we can find CNN, CNBC ,BBC ,fox news and others news network on cables too, same with other countries. But that by no means that western media are better than eastern media, that is totally not true, As my mentor in school taught me, "Dont believe in one single media" So the western countries should have access to some Eastern media too.
With economic progress, the life of many chinese will get much better, the CPC knew it, they know they cant make everyone rich at the same time. No longer do they believe that "All animals are equal" (quote from animal farm).
The Deng XiaoPing doctrine. which is to "let some get rich first and then the rest will follow" is working well right now in China.
Yeah, most Chinese are still no able to catch up with the western counterpart. but they are catching up. In fact while some westerners are complain that most chinese are living below their standard, they are actually worrying about them catching up, talk about hypocrisy.
From what i see, yeah, the CPC is still controlling much of the countries and sometime a little too much, but the top leaders are actually heading in the right direction. china is seeking a republic like the one in Singapore now. A stable gov with robust economy control. And i have to admit, Singapore is not a good example of a free Gov, but at the very least, they are enjoying one of the world highest captial per person.
But even country like Singapore is also in the process of opening up, so i will say lets wait and see without much intervention, China is doing good actually, but the sad fact is some countries are actually trying to delay, disrupt and stop the process.
Bluemofia
F=ma
Other countries know, (they appear to) that China's resources and manpower can make them accomplish whatever is feasible if they set their mind on it. So they are trying to keep them down, to avoid gaving another power stronger than them. Would the US like it if there is a power stronger than them? no, because it's citizens would lose the right to be arrogant (jk), and then they would actually have to consider it's opinions seriously. It's something like balance of power, as the world theater dosn't have enough room for the US, EU, Japan, and China. Countries just don't want China to become powerful and it may want to seek revenge from when it was humiliated in the late 1800s to 1900s.
Jeff Yu
Prince
Sobieski II said:
I don't think Chiang and the KMT is actually seen that badly in China. I've actually been to Chiang's villa in Hangzhou, where it's still preserved as a historical location. Sun Yatsen is seen as a hero in China and a city was named after him. Traitors like Wang Jingwei get far more badly villified for cooperating with the Japanese. Ironically enough, the KMT are the party that enjoys closer relationships with the communist party, since they're the pro-reunification party nowadays.
Jeff Yu
Prince
Bluemofia said:
The United States is just being pragmatic. No country wants to lose its position of power and influence in the world. The British Empire managed to step down gracefully because it was handing the reigns to the US. China though, is an idealogical opposite of the way the west works, and of course the US is going to do its best to make sure China doesn't rise of to top of the pack. I'm a US citizen so I'm living quite comfortably with my western standards of living, my freedoms and my citizenship, and I can completely sympathize with the American viewpoint and see why it's so scary for a non-democratic country to rise to power.
But I'd dearly love to see the country of my parents and ancestors enjoy wealth and standard of living that I have, and despite the lack of political rights, I think the government of China has done a damn fine job on the economic end of things and making a lot of people better off since reforms first started several decades ago.
Sarevok
Civ3 Scenario Creator
this is an interesting issue, but to be quite honest a raging, militaristic Japan is much more appealing to me that a communist superpower in China.
Shaihulud
Deity
Sure thats only because then they can get a proper asskicking this time. From personal experience, they still have a superiority complex over most Asians.
Dann
Green bug
What did I say that was pro-anything?Sobieski II said:
All I said was that he was able to see the situation for what it is (for his Republic then) but he failed to quash the very rebels which he was so terrified of, even with massive US support.But they can't close everything.luiz said:
@Ramius75
Basically agreed with all you said.
So the huge online community here is affecting even Singapore eh? Interesting.
About the first part, sadly it's true. Here's an example shown on local TV news: The hinterlands are still so far behind, the students at one village school were all agog over their very first computer, acquired through donations from better-off places - a Pentium I!luiz said:
Think about it.However, I must question the 2nd part. Why is it "most important" to have dissenting voices? What if there's nothing major to dissent against? Only minor gripes? Must people always be at loggerheads with their government in order to be considered "modern democracies"?
What the... ?Sarevok said:
That's a non-argument. The russians honestly loved Stalin, when he died many people became extremely desperate and kept crying for days.Shaihulud said:
Hitler was also quite popular in his day.
Since Mao's regime in China was never changed and people still get the "official version" of history, it's no wonder he is looked favourably.
As a rule the masses will like whoever the propaganda machine tells them too.
That's why without a free press there is no freedom whatsoever.
So Hitler and Stalin are cool as well.Shaihulud said:
There is always something to dissent against, no matter how well-off the country is. In China there is much, MUCH to dissent.Dann said:
But I'm not saying that people should always oppose their government. What I'm saying is that it's crucial that dissenting voices are allowed to be voiced, so that the people have access to both sides of the story and can choose their side based on information, not government-authorised crap.
For those who say that the chinese are not ready or do not want Democracy, I point to the exemple of Latin America. For much time it was believed that we need a strongmen rule, that we are too ignorant to vote, etc. And yet now that we(most of us, that is) live under free democracies nobody wants to give it up. We did not become rich first and free later, like some people suggest about China.
The right to say whatever you want, to curse whoever you want, to hear different opinions and to actually choose who will rule the nation is priceless.
Dann
Green bug
@luiz
I understand your point. I come from a liberal democracy myself which was once also under a dictatorship. But then again the Philippines is much more similar politically, culturally and religiously to Mexico, rather than Indonesia or Malaysia with which it shares the same ethnic stock.
What good is free elections when the only ones who will win are those who already have the money and the connections? What good is the right to gripe about the government when nothing will come out of it anyway? Parts of the Philippine press is permanently anti-government, to the point of being sued for sedition. What good is that for?
Perhaps sometimes too much freedom can become a liability. The poor here, despite their condition, are optimistic. And envision a better China for the next generation. Meanwhile my relatives back home, middle class professionals mind you, are pessimistic and whine all day, imagining a worse future. I tell them: "But the news just said the country's economic growth for 2004 surpassed expectations. And that's not government propaganda. That's reports from international sources." They reply: "Oh yeah? A big help that is, seeing how public transport fares, and by extension prices of all basic commodities, have been raised yet again! While our salaries have not!" Sigh...
I understand your point. I come from a liberal democracy myself which was once also under a dictatorship. But then again the Philippines is much more similar politically, culturally and religiously to Mexico, rather than Indonesia or Malaysia with which it shares the same ethnic stock.
What good is free elections when the only ones who will win are those who already have the money and the connections? What good is the right to gripe about the government when nothing will come out of it anyway? Parts of the Philippine press is permanently anti-government, to the point of being sued for sedition. What good is that for?
Perhaps sometimes too much freedom can become a liability. The poor here, despite their condition, are optimistic. And envision a better China for the next generation. Meanwhile my relatives back home, middle class professionals mind you, are pessimistic and whine all day, imagining a worse future. I tell them: "But the news just said the country's economic growth for 2004 surpassed expectations. And that's not government propaganda. That's reports from international sources." They reply: "Oh yeah? A big help that is, seeing how public transport fares, and by extension prices of all basic commodities, have been raised yet again! While our salaries have not!" Sigh...
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