Chinese stability survey

[iOnlySignIn]

I think the balance is different on Emperor, especially on 3000BC. I've played a medieval civ (usually England, Russia, and Arabia) on the 3000BC map for about 10 games, plus 5 or so games as Japan. I've only seen China survive till 600AD twice. They usually get sufficiently weakened/destabilized by barbs before they can build the Great Wall and collapse before 600AD, and more often than not I see their capital somewhere in southern China when I spawn as Japan (evidence that the original one was razed by barbs).

Of the two times they did survive past 600AD, one was large but unstable by the time I (Arabia) spawned partly because they took a barb city in Europe, and collapsed soon. The other one (where I was Russia) did survive for quite some time and was only narrowly wiped out by the Mongols.

For 600 AD starts (about 20 games of that) China always remains strong and usually survives the Mongols fine, even if they loose their capital. Again, all on Emperor.

I think this has to do with the "first contact penalty" I mentioned in the RFCS thread. The stability maps don't matter so much for the ancient civs. They invariably collapse early on the 3000BC start no matter what the other civs are doing.

As for stability maps, I like the current RFCS map except for Tibet. Tibet should be Contested at best and a low priority for China. Currently the only thing controlling Tibet does for China is to spark a war with India, which is unrealistic both historically and in game - AI is incapable of navigating around the Himalayas.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, the AI in fact is more stable on emperor. Ironically that often makes it even easier for the HI because it creates situations like Mongolia never becoming powerful etc.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^One reason for that is OP barbs on Emperor. RFC: Europe had a similar problem with Cordoba being overrun by barbs since day 1 and dying soon after Spain spawn, just like how in DoC China dies soon after Japan spawn (and often fail to found Taoism - it's pathetic).

Cordoba was fixed by giving them more starting units. China already has its UP in DoC - AI just sucks at leveraging it (making Archers instead). Perhaps they can be fixed by giving them more accessible Copper/Iron.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Actually, Leoreth made it so that AI China is less likely to build units, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^They still build loads of Archers. Which isn't that bad since they can be upgraded to their UU - but there is always a surprising lack of melee units, unless you count the initial Warriors.

India, Babylon, and Egypt's UPs all directly improve their stability. China's UP does not. In fact China is more difficult (for both AI and HI) than India or Egypt to survive from 3000 BC till past 600 AD. Its UP is also possibly the worst regarding its situation. It's a military UP for land units only, but China's only real enemies are Japan which is naval, and Mongolia which spawns very late. Between the construction of the Great Wall and the Mongol spawn China's UP is absolutely useless for more than 1000 years, which is a dreadfully long time to play on Epic or Marathon.

Well, that UP has one arguable use, which is to help China's unit number UHV. But that UHV is trivial - all you need to do is gift away your metals and build Warriors. It's also dreadfully boring, because in 1600 whether HI or AI you would have either wiped out the Mongols or been wiped out by them. So you have the largest army in the world with no enemies to fight.

I suggest a revised UP, UB, and UHV for China:

UP: The Power of Myriads: +1 Happiness, +2 Health in all cities.

UB: Pavilion: Replaces Theatre. Requires Literature instead of Drama. Instead of 2 Artist slots, provides 1 Free Artist.

UHV (to replace unit number UHV): Be the first to discover Compass, Paper, Gunpowder, and Printing Press (may need to adjust Viking 600 AD starting tech).

Edit: Ah, I forgot. I was thinking you've already added back Confucianism. Anyway, the ideas behind my suggestion were:

(1) China's UP should be like India's or Egypt's, which help their stability/economy since it will stay largely peaceful. A cheaper and better Crossbow UU, the Great Wall, plus the AI predilection for Archers are more than enough for their military.

A straightforward Health/Happiness boost for example would encourage fast growth in early game, as well as large cities with specialist economies ("Agriculture Over Commerce", 重農抑&#21830 in mid-late game, which are historical for ancient China. This also indirectly leads to higher unit production (original UP), AND facilitates easy transition to Communism.

(2) Compass, Paper, Gunpowder, Printing Press UHV. If you ask a Chinese person what defines their civilization/what they're most proud of, they'll mention the Four Great Inventions instead of their historical army sizes.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

UB: Pavilion: Replaces Theatre. Requires Literature instead of Drama. Instead of 2 Artist slots, provides 1 Free Artist.

That would be very hurtful for stability considering the culture sprawl will go onto claim many tiles outside of China's already small stability map.
Also, the Taixue UB is powerful but deceiving in it's usage. I've run specialists for extended periods of time due to its generous allotment and wound up hurting my economy as a result.

UHV (to replace unit number UHV): Be the first to discover Compass, Paper, Gunpowder, and Printing Press (may need to adjust Viking 600 AD starting tech).

That is also the current 2nd Chinese UHV.
It synergizes with China's current UP, Power of Invention,
which gives a 20% bonus towards techs that have not been discovered by anyone.

iOnlySignIn, have you been playing on the SVN version or no?

Also, Leoreth.

The new tile additions to China's stability map are good
but I would like to point out one error and two suggestions.

Would it hurt to make the three marked tiles + 1S of the Spice (Hanoi) light green?
Also, I think you may have made an error somewhere along the way,
because that marked Pigs 2S of Chang'an/Xian is a Foreign tile for some reason.

I was speaking about these tiles before,
and what I meant was that these three tiles shouldn't flip to the Mongols, IMO.

 

[Leoreth]

Actually, Leoreth made it so that AI China is less likely to build units, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, it is. One major problem in the China/Mongolia dynamic was that China invested most of its production into units instead of buildings (which would be more historical, especially for the Song dynasty). So I lowered their leaders inclination to do so.

Also, the Taixue UB is powerful but deceiving in it's usage. I've run specialists for extended periods of time due to its generous allotment and wound up hurting my economy as a result.

That reminds me to review the stability code to penalize China less for slow economic growth exactly for that reason.

Would it hurt to make the three marked tiles + 1S of the Spice (Hanoi) light green?
Also, I think you may have made an error somewhere along the way,
because that marked Pigs 2S of Chang'an/Xian is a Foreign tile for some reason.

I was speaking about these tiles before,
and what I meant was that these three tiles shouldn't flip to the Mongols, IMO.

The pigs tile is a mistake. Wasn't sure about those three Vietnames tiles but you're right, they shouldn't get penalties for controlling Guiyang or Guangzhou. Haven't touched the Mongols yet so their core's still as it was.

It's not directly related to the subject but because this is a thread related to China in general: I'm still not completely happy with the composition of resources there. I think their overall number is okay, but their position makes the AI value the wrong tiles. I'd specifically like to buff the city positions at the rivers (Luoyang and Kaifeng) compared to positions north or south of it, because the AI prefers others, often for good reason. Does someone have a resource realignment idea?

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

The pigs tile is a mistake. Wasn't sure about those three Vietnames tiles but you're right, they shouldn't get penalties for controlling Guiyang or Guangzhou. Haven't touched the Mongols yet so their core's still as it was.

What about Hanoi?

It's not directly related to the subject but because this is a thread related to China in general: I'm still not completely happy with the composition of resources there. I think their overall number is okay, but their position makes the AI value the wrong tiles. I'd specifically like to buff the city positions at the rivers (Luoyang and Kaifeng) compared to positions north or south of it, because the AI prefers others, often for good reason. Does someone have a resource realignment idea?

Well, my suggestions aren't really about resource realignment, but if the rivers can actually start from 2/3s of the east side of the Tibetan Plateau
and those three peaks in Yunnan could be removed, it could create a more believable landscape.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

What? That's already China's UHV? I am both ashamed and relieved then. I haven't been playing the SVN version of DoC. Apparently I should! I like Linkman's 4 Golden Ages UHV for China too, mainly because the massive stability penalty I get every time I drop out of Golden Age - it alone provides very interesting (and historical) challenges. I just wish the 160 units UHV removed - it's even more underwhelming than the "largest revealed map in the world" UHVs.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

As for maps, historically China had better direct control over the northern part of the Korean peninsula and the northern Vietnam than either Tibet or Taiwan. IMO all these areas (N. Korea, N. Vietnam, Tibet, Taiwan) should be between Yellow and Light Green. In fact the Greenest of them IMO should be N. Vietnam.

As for city locations, I have a cheap and brutal solution. Add a few Flood Plains to the city locations you wish to discourage. Make Flood Plains unsettle-able unless next to a river (like Desert). This does not affect anything else on the map since all existing Flood Plains are next to rivers.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Ideally, China should be the hegemon of the region and Qing/RoC/PRC borders shouldn't be denied in full as well as the areas they held control of for centuries (Vietnam, Corea), but I think Leoreth wanted to reduce their stable areas (in the first place) for game balance. I really do think it's unfair that this is pretty much the only civilization singled out that doesn't get it's historical/modern borders apart from Mongolia, who now often actually forms its historical empire and then some (they often even hold Greece now) now, so that point is moot, but Leoreth has his reasons, I think.

Although I still think if the Japanese green in North America stays (which should seriously be moved down from Seattle/Vancouver and down into NorCal+Hawaii; this game is not Shadowrun), there's every same reason and justification that allows Chinese green all along the West Coast of North America too (even more reason in Vancouver, just go visit the city and see for yourself). I think Leoreth said that in the case no one colonized the West Coast, it didn't hurt if Japan colonized it, but with that same justification, it wouldn't hurt if China colonized it either.

Also, I think I've made my point, but I just want to add one more:

Originally posted by HurriCline:

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I routinely see AI Khmer both taking over China (after China collapses to barbs) and beating the crap out of Mongolia, taking cities outside the historical Great Wall, while remaining Stable/Solid. It's simple really, since Ballista Elephants eat Keshiks for breakfast, lunch and supper. Emperor + Epic/Marathon. That was before Indonesia was introduced though. Without supercity Jarkata Khmer is much less impressive.

I think Leoreth wants to decrease Chinese stability map size because AI China spam expand across the Gobi desert, which is both ahistorical and stupid. The reason that happens is not because China has a large stability map: it's because they have no enemies after Great Wall and before the Mongols. 1000 years. No enemies.

I suggest solving this by spawning Independent cities in northern (and perhaps southern too) China to represent the historical nomadic invaders to China (Xiongnu, Wu Hu, Gokturks, Khitans, Manchus, etc.). These Independents should spawn with more advanced units that regular barbs and be at Constant War with China. This would:

(1) Give China some chance to get XP and Great Generals pre-Mongol and post-Great Wall. Makes Chinese game more interesting and realistic.

(2) Prevent China from getting overpowered (due to early Great Wall) or underpowered (due to late Great Wall, since these Independents will screen out some early barbs from China).

(3) Hopefully screens out the annoying Roman/Egyptian scouts which miraculously survived their cross-Siberia trek just to screw China over with the "First Contact Instability" that I mentioned before.

(4) Make the Russian game and the Mongolian game more realistic too, since they get to conquer some Independent cities in Siberia/Central Asia instead of having to send mass Settlers to those areas (Bah!).

Just my $0.02. If Leoreth adopts this idea then I'd be happy to provide exact spawn year/tile of these independents, their city names, size, units, etc.

P.S. This forum's server is so horrible, loosing my post > 90% of the time and becoming completely inaccessible >50% of the time. "The server is too busy at the moment…" etc. Can't we discuss somewhere else with better tech support? How do you guys dealing with this?

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Those are Thais, not Khmer.

EDIT: But that isn't a bad idea, and might finally produce the justification for a large Chinese stability map in regards to gameplay balance.

 

[BenZL43]

Agreed from historical side.
Many nations in-game are actually not a city-builder but city-conqueror...
Mongol, Chinese, Indonesian, Viking...
Vice versa, some of the city-builder like Carthage and Greece somehow a bit misdirected to conquer cities (focused on Punic Wars; Alexandrian Era)

 

[iOnlySignIn]

justification for a large Chinese stability map in regards to gameplay balance.

Exactly so. That's what I have in mind when I came up with the idea.

Actually, the Chinese stability map will *have to* be expanded if we are to spawn Independent cities near China's core, because otherwise conquering these cities will mean certain and quick collapse for China (which would be ridiculously ahistorical).

And even if China does conquer these Independent cities (presumably in Light Green or Yellow Areas), I propose that they periodically (at historical times) revolt against China to represent the rise of *different* nomadic tribes in the area.

Many nations in-game are actually not a city-builder but city-conqueror...
Mongol, Chinese, Indonesian, Viking...
Vice versa, some of the city-builder like Carthage and Greece somehow a bit misdirected to conquer cities (focused on Punic Wars; Alexandrian Era)

True, but not so much for Greece and Carthage.

Hisotical Greek colonies are pretty much all covered by the culture of in game Athens, Sparta, and Byzantium. Except Provence and Crimea, but you can't have those if you want an Alexandrian empire. In original RFC Greece does not have the Alexandria UHV but it was considered too generic and unexciting.

When I play as Phoenicia I find a peaceful settling of its historical colonies the best strategy to win UHV, because (1) they give you Dyes (2) Phoenician UP is best leveraged with peaceful trading.

I think the problem is only apparent in central and northern Asia, and affects China, Mongolia, and Russia. Those areas are simply too empty in game. Historically the steppes indeed cannot sustain a high enough population for city dwellers, but it did allow for transient hordes of nomads with great martial prowess to arise every so often. And they are not like the sub-Saharan and American natives faced by European colonizers (who are better represented by spawning Impis and Dog Soldiers), because these central Asian nomads are in direct contact with the most advanced Eurasian civilizations and had state-of-the-art weapons and technologies. That is why I think they are best represented by Independents.

We also already have Independent Samarkand. And Seljuks too. I don't see why other prominent historical cities along the Silk Road (that the historical China had consistently strived to control) cannot be added.

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Edit: We can compare the Chinese stability map with its Indian counterpart. The former barely covers half of the present China, while the latter not only convers present India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, but also significant chunks of Burma's coast as well. I really enjoyed that, because it sort of represent the Chola dynasty and its naval prowess.

But if we take the current assignment of stability maps to be historical in any sense, then you've got a really warped representation of Indian and Chinese history. For one thing China IRL as of 2011 should be Unstable/Collapsing compared to India, because it has 'overexpanded'. XD

Or you can compare that to the American stability map, where Canada, Panama, Puerto Rico, Virgin Island, and Okinawa are all Light Green, and large chunks of Europe (including London and Paris) Yellow. That is despite America's super late start giving it huge inherent Stability advantages over anybody else.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Eh, I would take issue with the claim that China is Unstable/Collapsing in 2011.
It sure looks a lot more stable than the US/EU to me right now (at least in terms of Economy =p)
Although we may be on different pages on that.

I haven't had in mind what independent cities I would like to see, but Kashgar is a very important one in Xinjiang that could be well represented with independents. Add like two oases to that area and it will be fine.

Also, Leoreth, you haven't been weighing in as of late (because of RL?) but what do you think about all this?

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Actually, one more thing; I don't think singling out one civilization for internal penalties like having cities revolt constantly in a certain region is a good idea. If they just flipped over to the Mongols on spawn, that would be fine (Xinjiang cities). From a player perspective, you would most likely wait to conquer those cities after the Mongol spawn so as to not suffer a crippling blow. For the AI, they're inclined to conquer independents regardless of where they are, so if they happen to do so, the Mongol spawn should accelerate Chinese collapse, and then they can get a rebirth when the Mongols collapse.

Like BenZL43 said, maybe if we restructure some goals, like instead of the 100 units goals, it would be something like:

Control by 1600/1900:
1 city in Tibet
1 city in Xinjiang
1 city in Mongolia
1 city in Vietnam
1 city in Manchuria
1 city in Corea

And we'd loosen the restrictions on the stability map.
To encourage the empire sprawl.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I played a China game and a Japan game on the latest SVN update yesterday. 3000 BC, Epic, Emperor, I stopped both games after I've won the Liberalism race.

Mongolia is super weak in both games.

In my Japan game I appeased China and kept peace and open borders, giving us both massive trade. China traded Philosophy to me for Guilds, for example. China lost Printing Press race to me though. By the time the Mongols spawn, China has a strong army of Cannons and Cuirassiers (Military Tradition monopoly tech). By 1452 (when I stopped the game) China had taken the Mongol capital.

In my China game I did my usual GLH - naval path. I teched slightly slower than the AI China in my Japan game, getting Gunpowder a few turns before and Military Tradition a few turns after the Mongol spawn. The Mongols spawned with a dozen Keshiks but never declared war on me. Then news came of a string of their victories in the Middle East and in Russia. Then my spy discovered that they have like 6 units total in the 3 measly cities in their homeland (Dunhuang was taken by the Koreans, then razed by barbs, then Korea declared on me and was killed). I promptly wiped out the Mongol homeland with my Cuirassiers (no Cannons needed) and they collapsed.

In both games India was really strong, leading the scoreboard all the way until the Mughals, and almost constantly at (phony) war with China.

TL;DR conclusions:

(1) Mongols need to flip more (barb or Indie) cities in their homeland. Or spawn with many, many more Keshiks. Or both.

(2) India needs to be nerfed and not declare on China all the time for no reason.

I'll play an English/Dutch game next and see how East Asia turns out without me taking sides.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Thoughts on Taixue:

(1) Early game (pre-Mathematics) it's an excellent alternative to whipping/settler pre-building to manage excess population/anger. I nearly lost Mathematics race to the Romans, but I uber Taixue-starved all my cities for about 10 turns and got it 1 turn before the Roman spawn! Yay! But other than those rare occasions it's not needed.

(2) Mid game (Calendar - Printing Press) it's hardly useful at all, because:

(2A) Your cities are no longer that angry due to Calendar luxuries and Confucian/Taoist Temples. Time to let them grow. China is food rich but there's hardly more than 1 place for a 3-Scientist supercity this time of the game.

(2B) You should be running Priests in your best Specialist cities anyway to get your Confucian/Taoist shrines. In the rest of your cities you can hardly manage to assign 2 Scientists, let alone 3.

(2C) You need production to build a massive army to deal with your belligerent neighbors. (Korea likes to vassalize to India and joint declare on me. Japan and Thai like to joint-declare on me as well.) You need population/Priests for that production, not Scientists.

(3) Late game (post-Constitution) it's OP with Representation, especially with a China that has established tech lead already (synergy with their UP). Not much to explain here. I suggest that the Chinese UP expires some time in this period (either with Constitution, or with Renaissance/Industrial eras). If China was already behind in tech (as an AI China *should* be post-Gunpowder) then this expiration will have no effect whatsoever. It only prevents late game China (especially my GLH/navy/trade "Ming Dynasty" China) from getting ahistorically OP.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

The mod isn't balanced properly for different speeds, FYI.

Most of the tests you've seen in the screenshots are on Normal speed.

I'd argue against an expiring UP, mostly because that's kind of what Maya has and there'd be too much overlap. Also, China today is among the innovative nations, it's just that during the Qing/RoC/early PRC era, it was behind. And I don't know if a temporary shutdown of the UP during Renaissance Era (and returning on Industrial) would work or not.