[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Thenewwwguy]

I am mindful of the fact that before the last update, people here were posting, "Of course the leader of the Gauls will definitely be Vercingetorix". Ha ha ha.

So I can imagine Firaxis saying to themselves, "Right, they think the Trung sisters are a shoe-in? Ngo Quyen it is!"

*please*

I would love Ngo Quyen...

I honestly have no problem with the Trung Sisters in theory but I already know their design and voice acting won’t be accurate to their culture, time period and language, so why allow for that disappointment and instead provide us with Ngo Quyen or Ho Chi Minh

I’ll also double down on @Zaarin and @Alexander's Hetaroi ‘s comments:

Maria Theresa as a German alternative would be cool.

And anyone who unironically suggests the confederacy doesn’t know what a civilization is

 

[Zaarin]

IF anybody felt a pressing need for another Non-Egyptian Egyptian Leader

With literally hundreds of Egyptian leaders to choose from, I'm not feeling a pressing need.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Maria Theresa as a German alternative would be cool.

I'd prefer her to lead a separate Austria, but I'll gladly take her either way.

And anyone who unironically suggests the confederacy doesn’t know what a civilization is

I've seen a lot of people suggest it. Well the Iroquois Confederacy that is.

 

[almughavar]

While we are discussing Vietnam and Kublai Khan, what do you think is the new district and gamemode for January?

I'm excited for the possibility of Vietnamese civ, the new district as well as its respective buildings, and to a lesser extent - possibility of Kublai Khan. I guess he would be released together with Vietnamese civ because he invaded Vietnam 3 times (I'm aware that western historians generally consider that the Mongols only invaded Dai Viet - Vietnam's former name - 2 times).

Regarding the new district, my 2 cents is that it would involve espionage/security apparatus. I think that espionage and public security aspects need more elaboration overall, and there is simply no district to represent them. At the moment there are only like 2 civs who have better than normal espionage: France and Mongols. Though in case of Mongols, to be accurately it has better than normal diplomatic visibility - which falls under the category of diplomacy first and espionage second (which is also similar to the case of Diplomatic Quarter District, which mostly bolsters your diplomacy and at the same time providing some counter-espionage bonuses merely for districts adjacent to it, not to mention it is limited to only 1 per civilization).

So yeah, I guess it would be a combination of domestic security apparatus and espionage. It can affect stuffs such as loyalty of your cities, and bolsters the overall effectiveness of your spies, opening up more options for security and espionage, providing a centralized focal point/headquarter for the security and espionage aspects of your civilization...

 

[8housesofelixir]

Regarding the new district, my 2 cents is that it would involve espionage/security apparatus. I think that espionage and public security aspects need more elaboration overall, and there is simply no district to represent them. At the moment there are only like 2 civs who have better than normal espionage: France and Mongols. Though in case of Mongols, to be accurately it has better than normal diplomatic visibility - which fell under the category of diplomacy first and espionage second (which is also similar to the case of Diplomatic Quarter District, which mostly bolsters your diplomacy and at the same time providing some counter-espionage bonuses merely for districts adjacent to it, not to mention it is limited to only 1 per civilization).

Considering the Diplomatic Quarter already has a small espionage feature, I don't think FXS will just introduce an upgrade version of it as a new district.

 

[almughavar]

Considering the Diplomatic Quarter already has a small espionage feature, I don't think FXS will just introduce an upgrade version of it as a new district.

However the counter-espionage bonuses from buildings of Diplomatic Quarter are limited (explained by me above) and doesn’t affect espionage in foreign cities at all.

Moreover from the start, districts have already had overlapping bonuses anyway, such as Harbor and it’s buildings provide an extra trade route as well as bonus gold and production, encampment’s and aerodrome’s buildings provide extra production, Holy Site’s buildings can provide either science, or amenities, or housing, or production, or Great work of art slot..., Entertainment Complex’s buildings provide extra science and tourism etc., you got the idea.

So counter-espionage bonuses from Diplomatic Quarter can also fall under that category, otherwise Diplomatic Quarter mainly enhances your diplomacy.

Moreover the district I speculated also enhances your civ’s public security. For example providing extra loyalty which you can distribute to cities of your choice, or automatically distributed to cities needing them the most (similar to how amenities are distributed).

 

[Abaxial]

If there is going to be another type of district, we need a boost to how many districts a city can build.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Moreover the district I speculated also enhances your civ’s public security. For example providing extra loyalty which you can distribute to cities of your choice, or automatically distributed to cities needing them the most (similar to how amenities are distributed).

I actually could see something similar like a "local government plaza" where buildings like a courthouse or police station could go and can be built in multiple cities.

The loyalty bonuses for the district could be implemented for those that own the expansions.

 

[almughavar]

I actually could see something similar like a "local government plaza" where buildings like a courthouse or police station could go and can be built in multiple cities.

The loyalty bonuses for the district could be implemented for those that own the expansions.

The keyword here is security. The type of security which I mentioned simply wasn't the type of security which regular cops and judiciary enforce, moreover I doubt those establishments would be of much help when it comes to securing loyalty. What I envisioned was a type of national security agency which was established to deal with bigger threats.

I imagine the security district would have these traits:

_ Limited to 1 per civilization.

_ Enhancing your civ's espionage performances, such as boosting success chance of espionage activities in foreign cities, increasing the maximum number of spies your civ can have by 1 etc.

_ Generating loyalty, which can be distributed by you manually, or automatically distributed to cities which needed them the most (on the verge of flipping for example) - similar to how amenities are distributed. The equivalent of that feature in real life would be security agents being sent to territories which are attempting to secede and cracking down on those perpetrators, capturing foreign spies who incited, helped organizing and funded those movements, maintaining security, broadcasting patriotic propaganda etc, everything governments around the world do to prevent secessions.

_ Enemy spies operate at 1 levels below normal when targeting districts in this city.

_ Inflicting a penalty of reduced Science and/or Culture - that's the cost of national security and territorial integrity.

_ Building 1 would benefit domestic security.

_ Building 2 would benefit espionage.

...and more. I will think more about it when I have time.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The keyword here is security. The type of security which I mentioned simply wasn't the type of security which regular cops and judiciary enforce, moreover I doubt those establishments would be of much help when it comes to securing loyalty. What I envisioned was a type of national security agency which was established to deal with bigger threats.

I imagine the security district would have these traits:

_ Limited to 1 per civilization.

_ Enhancing your civ's espionage performances, such as boosting success chance of espionage activities in foreign cities, increasing the maximum number of spies your civ can have by 1 etc.

_ Generating loyalty, which can be distributed by you manually, or automatically distributed to cities which needed them the most (on the verge of flipping for example) - similar to how amenities are distributed. The equivalent of that feature in real life would be security agents being sent to territories which are attempting to secede and cracking down on those perpetrators, capturing foreign spies who incited, helped organizing and funded those movements, maintaining security, broadcasting patriotic propaganda etc, everything governments around the world do to prevent secessions.

_ Enemy spies operate at 1 levels below normal when targeting districts in this city.

_ Inflicting a penalty of reduced Science and/or Culture - that's the cost of national security and territorial integrity.

_ Building 1 would benefit domestic security.

_ Building 2 would benefit espionage.

...and more. I will think more about it when I have time.

I only mentioned something along the lines of maybe a local security district because I think that some national security district would have overlap with both the Diplo Quarter and the Intelligence Agency in the Govt. Plaza, especially if it has to deal with espionage/spies.

 

[Codeword Iroquois]

Alternately, it could be an administrative district, with buildings that are often found in cities but don't make much sense for the city center.

 

[Jeppetto]

Well I'd like something bigger for Economic Gamemode like Corporations and Economic Victory Monopol-building similar to Diplomatic Victory from Civ5, but given we already had minor changes to City-States with DiploQart and given the size of prior Gamemodes, I think simple change to how Resources work is the best I can hope for. Maybe Trade District with Caravansary/Trading Post (changing how they work), benefits to/from Trade Routes, Storage to maitain Resources with unique effects.

On the other hand, DiploQuart was also disconnected from Secret Societies, so there's still chance for Espionage District with Constabulary, Jail and so on for global intelligence defense. On the third hand, it's questionable whether they'd like it to be global and we already have something along the lines with DiploQart. Even If Health and Plagues won't be introduced, maybe some Health District with Hospital, Apothecary, Alchemist building that enhance Housing, as something one-of-a-kind unlike Neighbourhood but with building unlike Aqueduct, could still work.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Alternately, it could be an administrative district, with buildings that are often found in cities but don't make much sense for the city center.

Yeah that's basically the idea that I was going for. Something like a Municipality Administration.

On the other hand, DiploQuart was also disconnected from Secret Societies, so there's still chance for Espionage District with Constabulary, Jail and so on for global intelligence defense. On the third hand, it's questionable whether they'd like it to be global and we already have something along the lines with DiploQart. Even If Health and Plagues won't be introduced, maybe some Health District with Hospital, Apothecary, Alchemist building that enhance Housing, as something one-of-a-kind unlike Neighbourhood but with building unlike Aqueduct, could still work.

As much as I'd like it to tie in with health and plagues, if we don't get it I could see a Health District still happening. Maybe tie it in to limiting the negative effects and population loss of natural disasters similar to what the Red Cross does in real life, though locally in game.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Uh, I have never once seen these requests.

I've seen a few over the years (and quite a lot of dissent), though I admit Texas comes up more often and I don't recall seeing any recently. Some of it is civil war fanaticism, though I think a considerable motivation is simply wanting a second civ to fill out America, probably combined with not having much knowledge/interest in native history.

At any rate, regardless of how desirable a confederacy is, I think the Cherokee are an excellent way of representing the South in a way that is actually constructive.

 

[Zaarin]

At any rate, regardless of how desirable a confederacy is, I think the Cherokee are an excellent way of representing the South in a way that is actually constructive.

The Southeast has quite a few good options--given that the Mississippi Culture and Southeast Ceremonial Complex lasted the longest there, along with spinoff cultures like the Powhatan--but the Cherokee would definitely be the most visible, especially to modern audiences. And, as a positive side effect, maybe it could educate a few people on where the Cherokee are actually located. (A Native American scholar I once read joked that the Cherokee are the most widespread tribe in America, being located by white people anywhere from Maine to Alaska. )

 

[PhoenicianGold]

The Southeast has quite a few good options--given that the Mississippi Culture and Southeast Ceremonial Complex lasted the longest there, along with spinoff cultures like the Powhatan--but the Cherokee would definitely be the most visible, especially to modern audiences. And, as a positive side effect, maybe it could educate a few people on where the Cherokee are actually located. (A Native American scholar I once read joked that the Cherokee are the most widespread tribe in America, being located by white people anywhere from Maine to Alaska. )

To be fair, not only were the Cherokee relocated, but presently are one of the two most populous tribes in the country...technically they are everywhere. Yet another reason why I think the Cherokee or Navajo would be great native representatives, since their modern diasporas span the US and could loosely be interpreted as representing all or most of the American territory.

But even if we didn't grant them that distinction, I still think the Cherokee are the best option from the Mississippi area based on Civ's idea of what a civ is. If the idea of a "civ" generally prefers (1) a unified polity and (2) a large, definable territory, then the Cherokee seem the clear frontrunner. They were colloquially known as a nation prior to relocation, and are still one of the most landed tribes in the country (which, if you combine them with the other civilized tribes in the recent SCOTUS win, together they have more territory than the Navajo). And if you combine the territory they had across MI/AL/GA/SC/NC/TN/KY/VA with Oklahoma, I would estimate that their historical geographic span is larger than the Shoshone (Comanche not included). I think we could call them an "empire" more comfortably than we could the Navajo, at any rate.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The Southeast has quite a few good options--given that the Mississippi Culture and Southeast Ceremonial Complex lasted the longest there, along with spinoff cultures like the Powhatan--but the Cherokee would definitely be the most visible, especially to modern audiences. And, as a positive side effect, maybe it could educate a few people on where the Cherokee are actually located. (A Native American scholar I once read joked that the Cherokee are the most widespread tribe in America, being located by white people anywhere from Maine to Alaska. )

I'll put in a plug here for the Delaware (Lenape/Lenni Lenape) as 'most traveled tribe'. Originally in Delaware, New Jersey and eastern Pennsylvania, their three groups moved north to Canada, west through Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana to cross the Mississippi, and south to join the Cherokee in Oklahoma, where the main Tribal HQ is now. I don't think they ever made it to Alaska, but there are current communities in Ontario, Wisconsin and Oklahoma, which is a pretty good spread.

 

[Zaarin]

To be fair, not only were the Cherokee relocated, but presently are one of the two most populous tribes in the country...technically they are everywhere.

The joke here is half the white population of America thinks they're part Cherokee, even if they're 100% white and have never had ancestors who lived anywhere near Cherokee territory.

But even if we didn't grant them that distinction, I still think the Cherokee are the best option from the Mississippi area based on Civ's idea of what a civ is.

The Cherokees were certainly part of the Mississippian culture area, but if the goal is to represent the post-Mississippians I don't think you can do better than the Choctaw or Chickasaw. The Chickasaw can be definitively connected to the Chicaza mound site, and there's good reason to believe the Choctaws originate at Nanih Waiya. The only real competition there comes from the Natchez, who maintained a Mississippian lifestyle into the historic period.

I'll put in a plug here for the Delaware (Lenape/Lenni Lenape) as 'most traveled tribe'.

That title definitely belongs to the Shawnees, but the Delawares moved quite a bit too. The Shawnees and Delawares, incidentally, always had a very close relationship; the Shawnees called the Delawares "our grandfathers."

 

[PhoenicianGold]

The joke here is half the white population of America thinks they're part Cherokee, even if they're 100% white and have never had ancestors who lived anywhere near Cherokee territory.

Making, imo, the Cherokee the closest thing to a must-buy Native American civ for most people aside from maybe the Iroquois.

The Cherokees were certainly part of the Mississippian culture area, but if the goal is to represent the post-Mississippians I don't think you can do better than the Choctaw or Chickasaw. The Chickasaw can be definitively connected to the Chicaza mound site, and there's good reason to believe the Choctaws originate at Nanih Waiya. The only real competition there comes from the Natchez, who maintained a Mississippian lifestyle into the historic period.

Oh I was talking the region, not the culture. I think we will not see a Mississippian civ in VI due to the Cahokia CS returning. And for that reason I don't think an explicit successor tribe like the Chickasaw or Choctaw are very likely to appear; in fact I would argue that it is the fact that the Cherokee are so different from the other Muscogean tribes that makes them more probable, since they catch not only a little Iroquoian representation, but are also, as we both have observed, most likely to resonate with Americans living in nearly any part of the country.

 

[Zaarin]

Oh I was talking the region, not the culture. I think we will not see a Mississippian civ in VI due to the Cahokia CS returning. And for that reason I don't think an explicit successor tribe like the Chickasaw or Choctaw are very likely to appear; in fact I would argue that it is the fact that the Cherokee are so different from the other Muscogean tribes that makes them more probable, since they catch not only a little Iroquoian representation, but are also, as we both have observed, most likely to resonate with Americans living in nearly any part of the country.

I mean, the Cherokee were also one of the successor confederacies that emerged after the collapse of the Mississippian culture, just like the Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Creeks. But I don't think a successor confederacy could really more than nod to the Mississippian legacy. The defining attributes of the Mississippians and the SEC were mound building, elaborate rituals, and highly defined social hierarchy; none of the successor confederacies built mounds, practiced elaborate rituals, or had highly stratified societies. Mechanically, I don't see the Cherokee looking much different from the Choctaw or Chickasaw: any one of them is going to get a mounted rifleman for a UU. UI is trickier, but I think a Stomp Ground unique improvement makes sense, again for any of them. The difference is going to be chiefly flavor and UAs--both CUA and LUA. The Cherokee have more in common with their Muskogean neighbors than they do with the Northern Iroquoian peoples, who were more influenced by the Algonquians.

An argument in favor of Choctaw is the relative health of the language (there are nearly five times as many native speakers of Choctaw as Cherokee), though neither language is in good shape, but I agree with your overall assessment: the Cherokee are probably the most marketable Native American tribe with the possible exceptions of the Iroquois and Sioux.