1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, May 11, 2020.

  1. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,394
    No. There's no excuse for using that phrasing and if it really was "understood" you'd not be trying to defend it.
     
  2. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    8,950
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    I think maybe you should brush up on Korean history if you think it was a third-rate backwater until the Korean War--and also if you think it was tiny. I'd like to point out that Goguryeo controlled the better part of Manchuria as well as all but the tip of the Korean Peninsula. Joseon was also a significant regional power and a cultural powerhouse (there's a reason I keep asking for a cultural Korea). While I have no doubt that South Korea's success and close relationship with the United States has contributed to its inclusion (and particularly to its eternal depiction as an uber-science civ), it's not like Korea doesn't deserve to be a staple on its own merits.
     
    Hawke9, LoneRebel, almughavar and 2 others like this.
  3. 679x

    679x Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2017
    Messages:
    289
    Gender:
    Male
    While I agree with you, I think their take on it makes more sense if you look at it from a perspective of trying to represent as many diverse cultures globally as possible in a limited civ count, rather than looking at it as whether one civ of a pairing can 'represent' the other. For example, if devs can only fit, say, 50 civilizations into a game, they're probably not going to choose both Mali and Songhai, because that reduces the amount of slots available for civs elsewhere in the globe, including civs that may stand out more from others in terms of lifestyle, territory, etc.

    That doesn't mean that Mali can represent / be a stand-in for Songhai, or vice versa. It just means that the devs want to cover as much of the globe as possible, and probably think that there are enough similarities between Mali or Songhai - or at least that there are other civs more distinct from one another than Mali and Songhai are - for it to make sense to only include one of them per game. Whether territory or general geographical location should be among the main criteria for choosing a civ is debatable, and whether the civs in each of these pairings should be considered mutually exclusive in a given game is VERY debatable, but I definitely think the devs are going that way with the civ choice and design: In V we had Songhai, in VI we have Mali. In V we had the Huns as the sort of steppe nomad civ, in VI we have Scythia as the steppe nomads. In V we had Denmark as the Viking-esque civ, in VI we have Norway as the Viking civ. If the devs included a much greater number of civs in the game, maybe such choices wouldn't need to be made, and there wouldn't need to be any implication of things as dubious as "Khmer and Vietnamese culture represent Siamese culture" if Khmer and Vietnam are in VI but Siam is not.

    Of course, the person who brought it up presumably meant to imply that these cultures can somewhat represent each other, in which case what I just said doesn't apply and it becomes a complicated issue that I don't have the knowledge or expertise to make any comment on like you have. We've had many pages of such discussion in this thread already, as well as in other threads.
     
  4. sukritact

    sukritact Artist and Modder

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,884
    Location:
    Bangkok
    I completely agree with you, I don't think we need Siam AND Vietnam for instance. I personally think North America and the Gulf of Guinea really need more love, and Europe is overcrowded. But phrasing it as "Vietnam already represents Siam" or "Spain already represents Portugal" is a really bad idea is all I'm saying, and can come off as culturally ignorant or even insulting.
     
  5. notNamed

    notNamed Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2020
    Messages:
    238
    Goguryeo was also arguably not any more Korean than France is Gaulish and Turkey Trojan. I.e. if we were being fair and equal, they would be getting their own, separate civ. With what we know of it, it was a state controlling fairly vast territory without much practical use as the Wei invasion and fairly decisive victory has proven. They have the Siberia to their back to make attacking them difficult (Sui sends regards), but once you're in there (such as with Han, Wei and Tang), they did not stand much of a chance.
    Back to Joseon, it was a power but most certainly not a significant one, both militarily (unable to deal with piracy, easily rolled over by the Japanese forces thrice and by the Jurchen forces twice more, so every time they were involved in a conflict) and culturally (they had fairly neat porcelain art, but their philosophical movements, hangeul and so on never really left their borders in any meaningful capacity). I agree there is merit to the stuff they've done, but in my ultra-competitive/utilitarian presentation of the civ picking process, they sit towards the rock bottom as states which have been involved in some historic events (as have all civs), but never did too much to warrant inclusion over another possible candidate. Just like Albania, Ireland, Latvia,... And I'd love to see an Irish or Gaelic civ in some future installment of the series, nor am I hostile to the inclusion of Korea (though I'm 100% behind the idea of shifting the focus away from the scientific pigeon hole they have been stuffed into by Firaxis). Korea found its way into Civ with Civ 3 the same way it has into other contemporary strategy games of the time, because of the historical achievement of being a country where playing Starcraft a computer strategy game, not Quake, nor Counter Strike or boring chess was the way to assured fame and glory.
     
    Meluhhan, almughavar, Kjimmet and 3 others like this.
  6. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite Emperor

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    1,023
    Gender:
    Male
    And BTS and Black Pink hype today in Europe and Americ where white boys and girls go nuts with Oppas, and Lisa Blackpink.
     
  7. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    8,950
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    Okay, I think we're on the same page then, though I'd point out that there's considerably more continuity between Goguryeo and Korea than between France and Gaul or Troy and Turkey. While there have been invasions and outside influences, the Korean culture and language has developed in situ, while the influence of the Gaulish and Anatolian languages and cultures has been virtually pulverized by successive invasions. The only Gaulish words in French, for instance, are those that were picked up by Latin in general, and I doubt any Anatolian words survived long enough to find their way into Turkish.
     
  8. notNamed

    notNamed Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2020
    Messages:
    238
    IIRC we know painfully little of the Goguryoan language, but at the same time it is fairly reasonable to assume the connection since yeah, there's basically no evidence or reason to expect for any major ethnographic shifts in the area.

    These postdate infamous Korean tower rushes and Starcraft casters you don't understand, but still cheer along with. And then getting a taste of Korean F2P MMOs (MapleStory, Flyff, B.O.T.S.,...) during the MMORPG craze.:mischief:
    And hey, as long as it creates more folks with a unique hobby, why not. Some of them might even turn out to be history buffs and come help us design Koreanic civs in the future.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
    8housesofelixir and Zaarin like this.
  9. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2020
    Messages:
    1,480
    For Korea I support any unique design as long as it is not Scientific Seowon again. Traditional Confucian educational institutions just don't teach science.
     
  10. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    8,950
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    We've seen a few civs break out of their traditional boxes--cultural Greece and China instead of all-war, all-day; hyper-aggressive Byzantium with a side of religion instead of hyper-religion; naval merchant Phoenicia instead of "lol elephants crossing the Alps" Carthage--but it would be nice if a few more civs could get out of their pigeonholes, and scientific Korea and scientific Babylon are at the top of that list for me. (Or Babylon can stay science if I can get cultural Assyria in Civ7.)
     
  11. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,926
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Belgium
    Great Person Specialist / Navy-oriented Joseon plz.

    Expansionistic Akkadian Empire plz.

    Yes. Yes. YES.
     
    Starina, 679x, SirMediocrity and 3 others like this.
  12. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,726
    Location:
    Toronto
    Yeah, some civs like the Zulu are pretty much always going to be warriors in every iteration, but even within this iteration you've seen changes to a civ like England, being at one point cultural, but now being more industrial. I like the slightly different takes on civs over time, to give you a few more options to play them. And alt leaders help too - Gandhi and Chandragupta obviously play differently for the same civ.
     
  13. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    8,950
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    That definitely works, though that's more a replacement for Sumer than Babylon.
     
  14. AaronTBD

    AaronTBD Warlord

    Joined:
    May 19, 2020
    Messages:
    175
    Gender:
    Male
    I’m just wondering cause I don’t know much about Assyria, but how would a cultural Assyria work?
     
  15. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    8,950
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    The better part of the wonders that the Greeks attributed to Babylon, including the Hanging Gardens, were actually in Nineveh. Ashurbanipal was something of a litterateur. Virtually all the great Assyrian kings built monuments and sponsored public works. tl;dr: Assyria is primed to be the builder/wondermonger/great work hoarder civ.
     
  16. AaronTBD

    AaronTBD Warlord

    Joined:
    May 19, 2020
    Messages:
    175
    Gender:
    Male
    So they could be like China or France in civ 6, very wonder based?
     
    Kjimmet, Codeword Iroquois and Zaarin like this.
  17. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    8,950
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    Yes, I think that's a fair comparison.
     
    AaronTBD likes this.
  18. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    6,931
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    I think it's a combination of both why Austria was passed over. Like you said since Barbarossa Germany is represented by the Holy Roman Empire it made more sense to do something new like Hungary, who is more distinct.

    Austria isn't really hard to represent as a distinctive civ honestly. It's just that not all of the UUs and UBs in Civ 5 were the most amazing picks and both of Austria's picks were not the best choices especially the Coffee house.
    A Grenzer UU and a Viennese School as a Theater Square replacement would be great and distinctly Austrian.

    Wat are you saying? :mischief:
    In all seriousness I don't think it was meant to be that Siam is directly represented by Khmer, however the general consensus is that the Khmer were going to be the primary Southeast Asian mainland civ, considering Siam was chosen over them in Civ 5.

    Vietnam most likely incoming is new and would represent another part of Southeast Asia, more influenced by China than what Burma or Siam would.
     
    679x, Kjimmet, almughavar and 2 others like this.
  19. sweetbrown89

    sweetbrown89 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2020
    Messages:
    70
    1: I specifically stated that I’m talking about geographical “diasporas” meaning “as many representatives of important and different cultural spheres within a location. I said nothing about them being equivalent to each other. Huns and Scythia representing the Central Asia location, Norway and Denmark representing a Viking Civ, Hungary and Austria representing the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Mäori and Polynesia representing Pacific Islanders, etc...not “exact equivalents in terms of mechanics.” I’m talking about location, location, location. The pattern is there: no representation of any slanted Civs as City-States. Blank on the world map in terms of representation. No Copenhagen, Vienna, Assur, etc. Phoenicia — Carthage being the exception for obvious reasons. I’m using game developer logic, not cultural historian logic.

    2. I said absolutely nothing about language.

    3. This. My analysis is talking about their pattern of SELECTING civilizations to *not* have the overlaps like Babylon & Sumeria (no, not in play style, necessarily) but to try and represent the broadest selection of cultures while keeping it fresh.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
  20. sukritact

    sukritact Artist and Modder

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,884
    Location:
    Bangkok
    I'm simply taking issue with the framing, because Siam is no more a "substitute" for Vietnam than France would be acceptable as a "substitute" for Germany. They're from the same geographic region and little more. I don't disagree that geographic region must be taken into account when considering how likely a civ is to be included however.

    That's just not true. Mitla isn't banned by the Mayans or Aztecs, the Maori don't prevent Rapa Nui (to use a very clear example for your Maori/Polynesia example) Hong Kong isn't even banned by China. There's nothing in the precedent that prevents them from possibly including Ayutthaya/Vienna/Hanoi/Tiwanaku/Reykjavik as a city state. They've only ever taken out/replaced City-States when the city appears as an actual city on someone's city-list (and I'd like to point out that even then, we somehow have both the Aztec's Tenochtitlan and Mexico City as a CS), not just because the two cultures are sorta close to each other.

    You'll note that I agreed wholeheartedly to this particular post because there's a distinction in what you two said, and it's a distinction that IMHO matters.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2020
    Jeppetto, pokiehl, Kjimmet and 5 others like this.

Share This Page