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[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, May 11, 2020.

  1. LoneRebel

    LoneRebel Emperor

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    Was there a leak or something that the Siamese would be one of the cultures in Humankind? I went to their Twitter page thinking they were the most recent one announced, but it was the Russians.

    I'd actually forgotten about the "only Southeast Asian country to never be colonized" thing in my earlier reply, because it tends to be blown out of proportion (Siam had to give up a lot of territory to the British and French to maintain independence), and also because my country has been repeatedly colonized, in contrast. :lol: But yes, that is a factor making Siam/Thailand a good candidate for inclusion.

    That's probably it then! I had no idea Vietnam's obsession with Age of Empires went back as far as AoE1.

    What about Jogaila as leader of Lithuania? Then when both Lithuania and Poland are in the game, things would get pretty...awkward. :mischief:
     
  2. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    Jadwiga's ability is called "Lithuanian Union." :dunno:

    So when they go to war it's technically a domestic dispute? :p
     
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  3. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I'm kind of hoping that does seem to be the case with that being his leader ability leading both civs.

    There seemed to be a SEA Industrial Era culture represented on a screenshot with the EU as an elephant mounted with a jingal. It's presumed to be the Siamese anyway.

    If Siam does return for Civ I would like to see it portrayed in this time period anyway to differentiate it from the other SEA civs which have always been portrayed so far as Medieval.

    Wouldn't be the first time a war was that. :mischief:
     
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  4. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Idea Fountain

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    This is a bit OT, but when I designed my Civ 7 vision, I dabbled with splitting Spain into Castile and Aragon; If one spawned in the game, the other would be in the game as well and they would enter a permanent alliance upon meeting each other (and each would receive a strict penalty to yields until they did). Balance would be a huge problem though; In my Castile/Aragon design, Isabella and Ferdinand had weak, inconsistent bonuses to make up for it (Isabella would discover a small bonus every era (example "+1 movement to recon units") that would last for two era's until it expired, while Ferdinand could change his Leader Ability into that of an ally's in exchange for 1000 faith)

    Lithuania and Poland could follow a similar trajectory, but obviously done by someone with actual design experience. :p
     
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  5. sweetbrown89

    sweetbrown89 Chieftain

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    I firstly need to point out that I made a correction to the representation: Khmer / Siam are the slant and Vietnam is brand new.

    City-States of ancient / historically mysterious cultures are separate from the Civs: Mitla represents the Zapotecs. La Venta the Olmecs. Rapa Nui inhabitants have been found to have genetics other than Polynesian in the timeframe of roughly 300AD-1722AD (fist European contact):

    “Genetic analysis performed by Erik Thorsby and other geneticists in 2007 revealed genetic markers of European and Amerindian origin that suggest that the Rapa Nui had European and Amerindian contributions to their DNA during or before the early 1800s.”

    So there were situations like with the Austronesians in the Philippines outnumbering the native Negrito populations, meaning it’s not entirely clear if Rapa Nui was originally Polynesian or not.

    Hong Kong was a British colony. Until returned to China, it was a Vatican City (Medieval) / Rome (Classical) or Mexíco City (more post Industrial) / Aztec (Medieval) as you’ve pointed out, but those are not contemporaneous as I’m pointing out.

    Either way, cities from slant representations still have not shown up on the map.

    And finally, I have to remind you again that the pattern is there. I’m *not saying* that I *personally believe* whatever cultures are fair enough representations — especially when Persia in the game is clearly Achaemenid, Indonesia is Majapahit, Scythia / Greece / Maya / were a collection of City-States or tribes and are a blob civs, as examples. I’m providing an analysis of Civ selection based on dev logic (“what can I choose that is close or similar?”), not cultural historian logic of anything to do with languages or whatever distinction you’re insisting on for accuracy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
  6. sukritact

    sukritact Artist and Modder

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    After you having said all this, if you still think Siam/Vietnam, Austria/Hungary, or basically all your suggested pairings other than maybe Denmark/Norway are acceptable “slant representations” of each other, I’m honestly going to have to say you’re being either absolutely arbitrary with your criteria or wilfully culturally ignorant tbh.

    (Also I strongly feel the urge to point out that Rapa Nui was like, part of the Polynesia blob in Civ 5, so I can’t even...)

    Yes, and I think the devs know enough to understand that adding Vietnam is not adding representation for Thailand (especially since they have a scholar of the region on their writing team), even if adding either probably does give Mainland Southeast Asia enough representation. The ultimate effect on the game of both viewpoints are the same. But you’re framing can be taken as extremely ignorant. I’m personally slightly affronted as someone from Thailand that you think Vietnam can be treated as a “slant replacement” for Siam for instance.

    To be clear, I agree that many of those pairing mean that including one makes the other less likely (because diversity of representation does matter), I don’t disagree with you there. I do disagree with the logic you’re using to exclude the other however, because many of your suggested slants have very distinct cultures.

    My issues and critiques remain regardless. Like for instance, the Khmer were Hindu/Mahayana Buddhist whereas Siam is Theravada Buddhist, not to mention languages from different languages families, time period; The Khmer are Medieval, Siam is more representative of the Early Modern (Hey! What do you know! Just like Norway/Sweden!), etc, etc. Similar arguments can be pulled up for the other pairings
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
  7. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    I actually love the idea of civs that are designed to work in tandem. I don't play multiplayer, but I could see that being super fun.
     
  8. almughavar

    almughavar Political commissar

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    I think it takes much more than a single UB to make a Civ a truly cultural based civ: as least leader's and civ's abilities should also boost culture. as well as synergizing with the UB to make it a cultural powerhouse. Personally I don't think Vietnam is gonna be a cultural civ, because the selling point of such a civ is expected to be... warfare. Not to mention we already have other cultural civs in Asia, who are right next door to Vietnam: China and Khmer - which also making much more sense for cultural based civs than Vietnam.

    Ethiopian though, moreover we still have another unrevealed civ.
     
  9. Andrew Johnson [FXS]

    Andrew Johnson [FXS] Warlord

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    One could make an argument that Siam did not as much lose territory, as gain it from Lanna, Nan, Patani, and Laos. And was forced to reframe its own system of governance to match European expectations.

    (Reading: Thongchai Winichakul: Siam Mapped; Michael Herzfeld: "Crypto-colonialism"; Shane Strate, The Lost Territories)
     
  10. DogeEnricoDandolo

    DogeEnricoDandolo King

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    My father was a diplomat and always told this joke about the most unique thing about Vietnam compared to other East/Southeast Asian countries is that it is the only one without a culture, and most suggestions from non-Viet players going in the cultural direction remind me of that joke and make me chuckle a bit. To be fair, they make Canada a cultural civ and it is probably the blandest country out there, so it is not unthinkable regarding Vietnam.
     
  11. almughavar

    almughavar Political commissar

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    Yeah, I’m not gonna pretend that Vietnam has an extremely unique and rich culture compared to many other countries.

    As least throughout history, Vietnam has some innovations which mostly belong to the categories of military weapons and warfare, which can justify some science boosts, but regarding many of its cultures, alphabets, structure of government, thoughts, philosophies, religions, beliefs... it either borrowed from other countries, or absorbed from nations which Vietnam has conquered.

    To the point that one of the most acclaimed literature works of Vietnam - Truyện Kiều (The Tale of Kieu) - was based on the settings, characters and plots of... a Chinese novel.
     
  12. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    I, as another East Asian, do find that the heavy coffee drinking culture very unique, even coffee itself is not a unique thing (I just brought a Vietnamese coffee filter/maker).

    I know this will probably not going to be presented in the game, but just want to say that I like your way of coffee.:smug:
     
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  13. sweetbrown89

    sweetbrown89 Chieftain

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    For the third freaking time, I clarified that Khmer / Siam were the slant from other people’s suggestions, not Vietnam and Siam.

    I think it’s horrifically sad that I have to keep reiterating that I am NOT LISTING WHAT I PERSONALLY THINK ARE PROPER REPLACEMENTS OF CULTURES WORTHY OF INCLUSION. I AM RECONSTRUCTING THE PATTERN AND LOGIC OF FIRAXIS IN TERMS OF SELECTING WHICH CIVILIZATIONS TO INCLUDE IN THE GAME AND THE PROBABLE LOGIC BEHIND THEIR SELECTIONS, NOT WHETHER OR NOT IT SATISFIES YOUR CULTURAL OR HISTORICAL CONTEXTS.

    Or better yet, YOU explain what exact selection methods the devs are using FOR THE PURPOSE OF PREDICTING NEW CIVS — AGAIN NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF SATISFYING WHAT SUKRITACT THINKS ARE WORTHY OR EQUIVALENT INCLUSIONS.

    You’re a great modder, but an insipid jerk for making this about whatever you’re on about and not “analyzing patterns of civilization selection for the purpose of predicting future civilizations.”

    Also I said nothing about language and NOTHING about Thailand. You’re bringing up points that aren’t even relevant to what I’m talking about, so don’t call someone ignorant when you’re straw manning an argument.

    I NEVER said that “the devs are picking Civs that are properly equivalent to each other” that’s what a slant representation is — a minimal, bare bones substitution of something: something as simple as “Austro-Hungarian empire historically existed. We did Austria in the last game, we will replace with Hungary this game.” Or “these are both nomadic cultures, we did Huns in this game and are doing Scythians in the next.”

    So PLEASE explain the pattern of selection for all Civs. Since that’s the topic and not “random points that Sukritact is obsessed with that weren’t even mentioned” since your argument is (supposed to be) about what in my reconstruction of the pattern of selection is wrong.

    For example: City-States in VI that are related to Civs from V
    • none from slant represented Civs (Austria, Denmark, etc.) have been present at any time
    • all capital cities (at some point in history) of previous Civs from V (Lisbon, Venice, Fez)
    • these “rules” exclude Rapa Nui for that reason and have no other patterns to discount said “rules”

    If something is wrong with the pattern of prediction, discuss THE PATTERN.

    Moderator Action: Please do not yell at others through the use of caps. It is annoying. leif
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2020
  14. notNamed

    notNamed Warlord

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    Hamlet is a riff on an Italian novel. Divine Comedy (and a massive amount of European lietrature) riffs the Bible, a mid-eastern book. Japan has made tons of Suikoden (Water Margin) sequels, named every single one of their eras (except for the newest one) by excerpts from Chinese books... and the newest one is based on a selection of poems which were trying to copy Chinese poetry. Meiji is named after a replica from Yi Jing (聖人南面而聴天下、嚮明(mei)治(ji)). And yet, scarcely anyone would call Japan a cultureless country, now would they?
     
  15. Republic of San Montuoso

    Republic of San Montuoso King

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    Wait, so you're saying that the distinctive cultural achievment of Vietnam is... to borrow cultures from all around their neighbors?

    It could be extremely interesting as a civ ability, don't you think? Like:

    In addition to Vietnam's CUA, UI and UU, each time a foreign culture became dominant in Vietnam, they gain the ability to build the UU, UI and use the CUA of the foreign civ

    At the beginning, it would be kind of weak, but as the world advance and more culture expand their tourism, Vietnam will gain more and more bonuses... Yes, it's dangerous because one of your opponent might win a cultural victory this way, but it would be like Kongo: you might let another civ win the Religious Victory but you need it to shine really bright.

    Just a silly idea thrown here. Let's see what Vietnam will become (even if, not being an American, I never saw Vietnam as a warfare civ, but more a merchant or even a cultural one, but I have to admit my knowledge is heavily based upon the Tran-Nhut novels with the Mandarin Tân, while being fictions, are still very accurate historically speraking, with lots of sources at the end of the novels)
     
  16. Jeppetto

    Jeppetto King

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    Based on their quotas, the March civ should be considered new. Though the two concepts can merge. Things like Phoenicia and Maori are also considered "new" civs. So they can both introduce Civ that can hold on its own as Civ returning from Civ V and still be considered new by renaming Iroquis to Haudenosanee. Plus it also offers decent female leader for the other quota. With leak of Babylon, it seems more and more probable.

    That's really not an issue with the mechanic and more like issue of UI, which is known to be rather lacking in Civ 6.

    I mean, Austria in Civ 5 had Coffee House as their UB :D So why not, representing coffee aspect of a culture is even more probable in Civ 6 where we have Ice Hockey Ring.
     
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  17. notNamed

    notNamed Warlord

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    I think one of the previous poster's gripes about historical slights in Vietnam-Thai relations should be a decent hint, but Vietnamese were not a very peaceful nation. Their history is basically one of continual expansion. Heck, they had a 200 year long civil war and even then the separate kingdoms (nominally under the same emperor) kept expanding their territory. Likewise, I'm not so sure about the whole culture borrowing portion. We had mentioned previously about the elephant tactics and symbolism they acquired from the Champas, but they also carried out a mostly successful and through ethnicide of those folks in the process. They do have a little more of South Asia in them than the Chinese but they were just as adept at sincisation of any barbarians they got under their control.
     
  18. Codeword Iroquois

    Codeword Iroquois Warlord

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    Side question: Would Akkad fall in as one of Babylon's cities, and if it did, who would replace it?
     
  19. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I think primarily it will be military/defensive but there's no reason why they couldn't lean cultural second with the water puppet theater infrastructure. Producing lots of culture will help them acquiring military policies in the civics tree.

    Which they borrowed the idea from the Ottoman Empire. I don't think the Coffee House was the most inspired choice of a UB in Civ 5 and shouldn't even be brought back for anyone, even Austria.

    Probably an Assyria city like Assur or Nineveh.
     
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  20. Kimiimaro

    Kimiimaro King

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    Aššur, perhaps. If they choose Nineveh to replace Babylon, it would make a great Assyrian pair :D
     
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