Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, May 11, 2020.
I don't know if they would do two Assyrian cities.
Babylon could easily become Ebla.
So, now, the question is when do we expect Babylon official reveal vid on YouTube? Is it more likely coming next week or the week after it?
The pack preview is tomorrow. They will probably give a brief teaser of the civ like they did with Byzantines and Gaul. But the First Look won't happen until the 17th.
I don't think that's how culture works in this game.
Moreover Vietnam was heavily influenced by the "four occupations" system originated in China, which divided the common citizens into 4 main classes: intelligentsia, farmer, craftsmen and merchant. Intelligentsia is on the top of this hierarchy, farmer class is lower than the intelligentsia, craftsmen class is lower than farmer class, and merchant is the lowest class in this hierarchy.
Vietnam's culture, philosophies, thoughts... were heavily influenced by China, then later it was also influenced by France when Vietnam became its colony, but after Vietnam became independent the influences from France faded, making place for influences from the Soviet Union as well as the US...
Lý and Trần dynasties of Vietnam were influenced by Champa to some extent, evidently through the usage and reverent of elephants, the decorations on armors, and Dai Viet (Vietnam's old name) regularly brought back artisans and Apsara dancers whenever it successfully invaded and looted Champa - the royals loved to watch the Apsara dance... Nowadays influences from Champa on Vietnam had vanished, but back then it was different.
Above were some details I remember having read in forum threads involving modding of games of Total War series, and it always fell to Vietnamese team to make the Champa faction, in addition to the Vietnam faction.
It should be noted that Vietnam only began sinicizing the populace of territories conquered by Vietnam by the time of its final dynasty: Nguyễn dynasty. Before that, it was simply massive land grabs, and the Cham people was even allowed to maintain an autonomous region inside Dai Viet. But by the time Nguyễn dynasty was established (through winning the civil war), that was the time the influences from China and Confucianism peaked.
At that time China was conquered by the Manchu, who established the Qing dynasty. The Nguyễn kings had the funny idea that since China was already conquered by Manchu, so Chinese people should only be referred to as Qing citizens, meanwhile Vietnamese could be referred to as Han people, because apparently Han people back then was a concept which denoted people who followed and practiced the culture of China, instead of limited to ethnically Chinese like nowadays. The kings claimed that Vietnam was the true inheritor of the pre-Manchu China culture, instead of China itself which was ruled by foreigners.
Beside referring to Vietnamses as Han people, Nguyễn kings also referred to Vietnam as the Middle Kingdom - the name only reserved for China previously.
So yeah, only since that time would Vietnamese attempt to sinicize the Khmers in Southern Vietnam (which originally belonged to Cambodia) as well as in Cambodia when Vietnam invaded and annexed those regions, and also completely annexed the autonomous territory of Cham people as well.
It's usually called scholar-official (CN)/yangban (KR)/samurai (JPN) in the west, not intelligentsia.
As far as my research into these matters was concerned, I've never been able to find any holdover examples of Vietnamese armors from this period. All we had to go on was statues which either used normal Tang dynasty armor or mountain pattern (for guardian dieties). This is also the look that AoE2 used for its ddepiction of the Vietnamese unit (Tang armor with that iconic breastplate, commander helmets and lamellar). Certainly no Indic armor decorations (if you have any examples, they'd certainly be appreciated) and likewise, we've gone through the official histories of Viet to find when exactly they started with the elephants and it was certainly not a fixture of either of these two dynasties.
Nguyễn shifted it into high gear due to stability factors but the sinicisation has been there basically since the start? I mean, Vietnamese ethnogenesis rests on two points. That is the Viet (historical relation to the pre-Han polities by people called Viets; applies to all of Vietnam) and Kinh (townsfolk, as opposed to the barbarians; applies specifically to the modern dominant ethnicity) identity, the latter defining the ethnicity through a clear sign of civilisation lacking in others.
As far as the peaks go, there were three peaks of Chinese influence in Vietnamese history (Lý for Song influence, Lê for Ming influence and Nguyễn for Qing+Japan influence). There's no real reason or way to quantify these as objectively more or less influential to the whole (as opposed to Ming's legacy in Korea and Ryukyu, Tang's legacy in Japan).
Just a minor sidenote, but the name Middle Kingdom/Central Plains as the name for the whole state is relatively recent. Though yeah, by the time of their dynasty, it was obviously that China. As far as the Han succession thing goes, almost everyone partook in it to some extent. Korean Sojunghwa or Japanese Ka-i Hentai all follow the same idea, which was kind of a sign of things to come in this part of the world (they rejected China as the center of the civilised world, but still saw the legacy and connections valid... unlike today when the old Japantowns in Vietnam would be seen as downright bizarre, same as exiled Vietnamese princes defending Koreans from invasions).
This is crucial for the mechanic you described because it will be too random to utilize its benefits. If one will not spawn in a game (on a standard map it would be around 86% probability now - increasing with the number of leaders) your bonus would be useless. So it should enforce this" second" Civilization to be always in your game after picking the first one. I don't know if it is an elegant solution. And how should it work in a multiplayer game?
Perhaps this leader should grain a new unique alliance type that only he or she could form with any AI?
BTW if this leak is legit I wonder what this new game mode would look like. Should we prepare for more vampires from those legends?
There's absolutely no reason to doubt the "leak" because many of us saw it ourselves on the eShop.
I wouldn't anticipate vampires because Anton said remaining modes are historical in nature.
Ethiopia is a culture-by-faith civ like Khmer; we still don't have a direct culture civ. As for the unrevealed civ, I'm expecting one of Portugal or a Native American civ. Portugal will not be a culture civ. While a culture-focused PNW tribe has been a high priority for me for years, I'm not expecting it. Babylon would be a great culture civ, but we've already been told it's a science civ. Of the remaining civs, then, Vietnam just seems the likeliest candidate.
I typically drink my coffee black, but I once had a Vietnamese egg coffee--it was pretty fascinating. (Also East Asians make great coffee products. I'm pretty certain I could use my 1Zpresso grinder as a blunt weapon with no ill effect to the grinder, and it grinds more consistently than any other grinder I owned. When I brew a pour-over, everything except my Italian electric kettle is East Asian--my brewer isn't when I brew by AeroPress, of course.)
It shouldn't be, but based on previous Civ games it might be. As others have mentioned, Aššur seems like a prime candidate.
Just a sidenote, Yangban and Samurai were hereditary, but scholar-officials were not; one need to pass the Civil Examination.
Yangban and Samurai were basically aristocrats, while Imperial China technically didn't have a non-royal aristocrat class after Tang dynasty (with the exception of Qing - Manchu nobles and Bannermen were kind of in an aristocratic status, but they were clearly not scholar-officials).
I'm nearly 100% sure it will be related to the long before leaked Lifespan and Renown system, plus Anton said long time before Secret Societies would be the last non-historical mode. So I expect an extra layer of unit enhancement (alongside Promotions and grouping units into Corps/Army/Fleet/Armada), perhaps even an expansion to Great Generals/Admirals, where these Heroes would lead your army with extra benefits. Or even something like WarCraft, where you have building that spawns Heroic Unit that would have active effect to aid your units, sort of National Hero from cluster of known heroic figures and martyrs. At best, most questionable thing would be that some of the heroes might be mythical or hard to prove they existed. But I really don't expect some supernatural beings.
Plus National Heroic and similar National Wonders from Civ 5 might return one way or another.
He said that most of the remaining ones would be historical, not that every one would be. I wouldn't be surprised if possibly some of it is mythological based, such as maybe names of hero units.
That being said looking back on twitter he said the next two would be historical. I am wondering if the free Tech Shuffle game mode counted as one of the two.
The Iroquois "mourning wars" capturing people and assimilating them wouldn't be considered cultural?
I mean the Aztecs had that ability similar in Civ 5 though I agree that Vietnam is the most likely candidate.
I mean, cultural assimilation was kind of the purpose of mourning wars, but it only really worked on people who were accustomed to being assimilated--i.e., neighboring Iroquoians and Algonquians.
Yeah, should have mentioned the slight differences in how this position differed between the states.
Though yangban in this case were only half-hereditary. IIRC, you basically ensured the position for a set number of generations with a passed examination. Past that, it was up to someone in the family to pass or lose the status.
Based on the pattern of the other single Civ release - Ethiopia - I would say the FL will be on Thurs. the 12th rather than Tues. the 17th. I also expect that the soundtrack release will likely be on Monday the 16th and a livestream on Wednesday the 18th.
I can't wait for tomorrow honestly, Babylon, Great People, City States, and Heros sound like it will be interesting!
Here's the quote people are quoting: https://twitter.com/antonstrenger/status/1286057394867503114?s=20
"... the next two planned Modes we have for you [Civic + Tech Shuffle, Dramatic Ages] are historically-themed ones that are designed to be more organic additions to normal historical play, that can be left on all the time..."
"...The majority of the Modes we have planned for the future releases are historical, not fantasy..."
Brace yourselves, (mythological) heroes and legends are coming!
We can also suspect that the Anton's quote was true at the time he said that, but not anymore: a whole lot can change since then! The team might initally started with a historical mode. Perhaps they find out during the playtest that what they imagined didn't work as well as they thougth. So, with some retweaks and few reworks, they might transform a historical themed mode into a fantasist one.
I am just throwing this here.
Random thougth: since that we have all the ancient wonders with the recent implementation of the Statue of Zeus, are we going to have a new scenario mimicking the civilization 5 one? It was a scenario where we can play either of 5 civilizations (Egypt, Sumer, Persia, Greece and the Hittites) and needed to build the most of 9 available wonders (the 7 ancient ones, the oracle and the great library). We can only wonder...
Yeah I was just pointing it out that it's not a guarantee that this will be 100% historical game mode, especially with the name legends in it.
But we'll find out tomorrow.
Yeah, but to be honest, I'm particularly more excited about Babylon, the City States and the Great People. I'm not putting a lot of expectations in Heroes mode, but we'll see tomorrow.
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