[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[LoneRebel]

One could make an argument that Siam did not as much lose territory, as gain it from Lanna, Nan, Patani, and Laos. And was forced to reframe its own system of governance to match European expectations.

(Reading: Thongchai Winichakul: Siam Mapped; Michael Herzfeld: "Crypto-colonialism"; Shane Strate, The Lost Territories)

My understanding is that the territory Siam had to give up to Britain and France was mostly territory they'd taken from other nations in the first place (such as the lands inhabited by ethnic Malays south of the Kra Isthmus), and not inhabited by ethnic Thai, so they could afford to lose it.

My father was a diplomat and always told this joke about the most unique thing about Vietnam compared to other East/Southeast Asian countries is that it is the only one without a culture, and most suggestions from non-Viet players going in the cultural direction remind me of that joke and make me chuckle a bit. To be fair, they make Canada a cultural civ and it is probably the blandest country out there, so it is not unthinkable regarding Vietnam.

So that means my country has a culture then? Aww, how nice of him!

I, as another East Asian, do find that the heavy coffee drinking culture very unique, even coffee itself is not a unique thing (I just brought a Vietnamese coffee filter/maker).

I know this will probably not going to be presented in the game, but just want to say that I like your way of coffee.

Vietnamese coffee is growing more popular here too, in addition to the already highly popular Taiwanese bubble teas.

Anyways, can't wait for the reveal tomorrow. Maybe they'll add Tondo as a city-state? One can dream.

 

[almughavar]

Nguyễn shifted it into high gear due to stability factors but the sinicisation has been there basically since the start? I mean, Vietnamese ethnogenesis rests on two points. That is the Viet (historical relation to the pre-Han polities by people called Viets; applies to all of Vietnam) and Kinh (townsfolk, as opposed to the barbarians; applies specifically to the modern dominant ethnicity) identity, the latter defining the ethnicity through a clear sign of civilisation lacking in others.
As far as the peaks go, there were three peaks of Chinese influence in Vietnamese history (Lý for Song influence, Lê for Ming influence and Nguyễn for Qing+Japan influence). There's no real reason or way to quantify these as objectively more or less influential to the whole (as opposed to Ming's legacy in Korea and Ryukyu, Tang's legacy in Japan).

No no, before the time of Nguyễn dynasty, Vietnam simply "vietnamized/vietized" the conquered territories, instead of sinicizing the populace like what Nguyễn dynasty did to Khmer people. Before Lê dynasty was established, Vietnam was defeated by China's Ming dynasty and was annexed by China in 20 years. In that period, Chinese tried their best to sinicize Vietnamese, destroyed much of Vietnam's unique culture, writings, customs..., so even when later on Vietnamese was able to defeat the Ming to regain independence, Vietnam's culture was severely damaged and many parts of it were unrecoverable. That was the main reason why after that, Vietnam was influenced by China to that unprecedented scale, simply because Vietnam's culture was damaged beyond recovery, eventually they had forgotten much of the old ways and the majority of the records were destroyed by the occupiers who was hell bent on wiping out Vietnamese national identity entirely. Because of that, they couldn't help being influenced by Chinese's culture, thoughts and philosophies.

So yeah, before Ming invasion, Vietnam still had a unique enough culture, not influenced by China and Confucianism to the extent of Nguyễn dynasty.

 

[AaronTBD]

I think that, while it's not impossible, the replacement of Babylon will probably not be in the Middle East.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think that, while it's not impossible, the replacement of Babylon will probably not be in the Middle East.

If not I think that Sukhothai could work keeping the same suzerain bonus and giving us another for SE Asia.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

So that means my country has a culture then? Aww, how nice of him!

The actual joke is based on a (rumored) exchange between Laotian and Vietnamese representatives at an ASEAN summit regarding who should host the following year ASEAN summit which would place an emphasis on maritime security within the region:
"Laos: I want to host that one.
Vietnam: Dude, you're the only one in SEA without maritime access.
Laos: So? You hosted the summit on Culture last year."

All jokes aside, it is not like we don't have culture, it is just that it's very difficult for foreigners to pinpoint one thing that screams "Wow, that's Vietnamese", compared to other major cultural players of the region. Just take architecture as an example, you don't need to be in Asia to be able to imagine what Chinese, Thai or Japanese architecture look like, but it is quite hard to imagine traditional Vietnamese structures, although our history dates back 4000 years. Viet architecture, and culture in general, invokes a sense of idyll and serenity, so it is not "out-there", in-your-face kind of awe-inspiring, so it is not exactly the most prominent or noticeable through marketing, unless you are actually there to see and experience it.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

All jokes aside, it is not like we don't have culture, it is just that it's very difficult for foreigners to pinpoint one thing that screams "Wow, that's Vietnamese", compared to other major cultural players of the region. Just take architecture as an example, you don't need to be in Asia to be able to imagine what Chinese, Thai or Japanese architecture look like, but it is quite hard to imagine what traditional Vietnamese structures, although our history dates back 4000 years. Viet architecture, and culture in general, invokes a sense of idyll and serenity, so it is not "out-there", in-your-face kind of awe-inspiring, so it is not exactly the most prominent or noticeable through marketing, unless you are actually there to see and experience it.

I think it all comes down to the playstyle in game, which I think could lean into culture though probably more focused on military.

What's been discussed a lot on this thread is the possibility of a water puppet theater being the unique infrastructure. And as far as I'm aware that's completely unique to Vietnam so that is something right there that screams "that's Vietnamese" and it being either a cultural improvement, building, or district.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

My understanding is that the territory Siam had to give up to Britain and France was mostly territory they'd taken from other nations in the first place (such as the lands inhabited by ethnic Malays south of the Kra Isthmus), and not inhabited by ethnic Thai, so they could afford to lose it.

Sort of. More like "nations as we know them are a European invention. When presenting oneself as a 'nation' became the only game in town, the Siamese quickly locked on to the idea and reorganized their own historiography [the not wholesale invention of, but the elaboration of the story of Sukhothai] as a justification for an expansion over those areas that had yet to adopt that notion as well as a reason why they should be exempt from European colonization". Other places did something similar (Finland, for example), though under very different regional and historical situations. Positing "a people, a history, a territory" was a claim towards existence in the present and in the future, not the reflection of a past unity - as Thongchai Winichakul writes, "a model for, not of" the nation. As far as ethnic Thais... again, that concept didn't really exist, though Tai languages are and were spoken in Laos, Shan states of Burma, as well as Lanna and parts of Yunnan. But ethnicity is always an invention of those seeking to lay claim to something - Siamese claimed Cambodia as "ethnically Thai" during the irredentist period, for instance.

So it is with culture. We can say Vietnam has "a culture" if it claims and promotes one, which I think it does today, regardless of whether or not Vietnamese had a script (Nom is based on Chinese, but is not Chinese, for instance) or an entirely indigenously-invented architecture. Most of Southeast Asia, too, had scripts and architecture taken from Indic languages! Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Burma, Laos, island SE Asia - all places that all have their own distinct national and extra-national culture!

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Vietnam got addicted to AoE1 about the same time as Korea to SC:BW.
They kept that going, though it seems that after Microsoft showed for the final time that they refuse to support the AoE1 scene, they might have started migrating to AoE2, I guess?
.

Did Ensemble/Relic recruited one of theirs to work on AoE3?
About RTS culture. here in Thailand, Westwood-era Command & Conquer Series (Especially RedAlert2 and Yuri's Revenge), and Blizzard's Starcraft and Warcraft3 were once a common internet cafe games. EA's mishandlings of C&C did prevent C&C3 the same success here (and maybe elsewhere) even there's marketing campaign with an ad page featuring 'Redzone' Tiberium infested BKK Landmarks of 2007 which rarely reflects the actual google map layering masks released in 2008-2009 (fan made or EA official i'm not sure but I was once played with it) that listed the entirety of country in Yellow zone with Bangkok a conquerable city in World Domination mode in Kane's Wrath expansion pack.
Too bad RTS isn't a big hit here anymore. Everyone here goes to Mobile MOBA.

I don't know how welll Civ series is doing here. but Many who played Civ6 here and either steam purchased the game or otherwise downloaded a pirated versions began in Civ5 (which it is the first Civ game i played it SERIOUSLY since Civ2, I learned more of History on Civ5, along with other sources, enough to judge that many historical facts presented in Civilopedia is more or less inaccurate.)

I'm quite over the "one leader leading two civs" gimmick. Hope it doesn't return in VII.

I have no problems with astriding leader. In fact i'm quite disappointed that Charlemagne isn't included as such but Eleanore did (And this in fact rendered both France and England without playable male leaderships).

My understanding is that the territory Siam had to give up to Britain and France was mostly territory they'd taken from other nations .
.

Those lands were not actually parts of Siam. In truth the concepts of 'Territories' were very new in Mekhong Asia, and those 'land ceded to Britain and France' were actually vassals, (City States). Before the second wave of Colonization in Industrial Era hitting Asia. 'City' is more important to 'territories'. and ownership is judged by whether or not a king (or more precisely Hegemon King) ruling from a specific city can appoint his servants to run this or that city, his power (and the might of a kingdom as a whole) is judged by the farthest cities away from the seat of power can the king appoints his servant to run it. Any city outside his 'jurisdiction' might either ran by local leaders not appointed by the king but can ally with him (for his own safety, not to be conquered) under certain terms and conditions including to pay tributes as required by the King at minimum (that leader may contribute more of its 'excess' to win the King's favor), and to send armies as per Royal Ordonnances in times of war. Under this conditions, It is possible to have rogue cities, or outlaw cities built by thugs, bandits, outlaws, or even escaped rebellions because the King was unable to put them down for various reasons (including foreign relationships with others if he doesn't want a big war between his and neighgbouring kingdom (s) YET)

 

[almughavar]

The actual joke is based on a (rumored) exchange between Laotian and Vietnamese representatives at an ASEAN summit regarding who should host the following year ASEAN summit which would place an emphasis on maritime security within the region:
"Laos: I want to host that one.
Vietnam: Dude, you're the only one in SEA without maritime access.
Laos: So? You hosted the summit on Culture last year."

In that case it’s very likely to be an imitation of a certain “Radio Yerevan joke”:

Radio Yerevan was asked: "Why did they establish a Ministry of the Navy in landlocked Armenia. Do you have a sea?"

Radio Yerevan answered: "To spite Azerbaijan. They had established a Ministry of Culture."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Yerevan_jokes

 

[Lord Lakely]

I don't know if they would do two Assyrian cities.
Babylon could easily become Ebla.

Palmyra, Elba, Tadmor, Qadesh, Carchemish, Washukanni, Troy, Arbela - all of these could be city states. There's plenty of choice and honestly, a Babylonian list doesn't even need to include Akkad.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Palmyra, Elba, Tadmor, Qadesh, Carchemish, Washukanni, Troy, Arbela - all of these could be city states. There's plenty of choice and honestly, a Babylonian list doesn't even need to include Akkad.

As if the entire region was just populated by city-States and every empire we had here (except maybe the Assyrian one) was just a city-State hegemonizing over the other for a short time, but the rest still being lots and lots of city-States more or less independent from each other... It would be like "I wonder which Italian/Greek city-State they could add for replacing X or Y city-State". Look, there was nothing but city-States in this region at this time.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Radio Yerevan jokes were very popular in Poland
I have found once this saying in Tiziano Terzani's book "A Fortune-Teller Told Me" (btw. great book about SE Asia).
"The Vietnamese plant the rice, the Cambodians watch it grown and the Lao listen to it grow".
Since then I love Lao

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Radio
"The Vietnamese plant the rice, the Cambodians watch it grown and the Lao listen to it grow".

I've heard that one too! It's usually attributed to "a French colonial official," though I wasn't able to find a source and it only appears recently in guide books and the like! Fantastic to hear it traced down to Terzani (whose work I do not know and which I'll check out!).

The French had a minimal footprint in Laos and Cambodia, usually appointing Vietnamese administrators to work there (and also being there for a time that was relatively brief, in colonial terms) and reflecting a lack of interest once the French figured out that the Mekong led "nowhere" (it leads fantastic places, but not to the Chinese heartland, which is where the French wanted to go). While there's a lot of French influence in Vietnam (Catholicism, coffee, the script), there's not nearly as much in the rest of Indochina. Present-day ethnic tensions between ethnic Vietnamese and Khmer in Cambodia are also rooted in this history.

 

[AaronTBD]

The leaks were true

 

[Birch617]

Maybe Trung Nhi would reuse the code from the Heroes game mode for the leader ability of Trung Trac, like an unique hero unit for the vietnamese

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Maybe Trung Nhi would reuse the code from the Heroes game mode for the leader ability of Trung Trac, like an unique hero unit for the vietnamese

Highly improbable. Why would they tie an ability of a civ to a mechanic in another, not free update? Enough people are already complaining that some of NFP DLCs needs GS or R&F to play (like you need DLC to play another DLC), so needing or intertying a DLC with another DLC would probably never occur.

 

[AaronTBD]

I think that, while it's not impossible, the replacement of Babylon will probably not be in the Middle East.

Well this aged well

 

[Birch617]

Highly improbable. Why would they tie an ability of a civ to a mechanic in another, not free update? Enough people are already complaining that some of NFP DLCs needs GS or R&F to play (like you need DLC to play another DLC), so needing or intertying a DLC with another DLC would probably never occur.

Didn't Ethiopia use some code /mechanics from one of the secret societies; same with one of the persona packs

 

[Foxforch]

I knew Babylon would make it to Civ6. It was the only one of the original civs that was missing. Hype is real!

 

[batusay]

Two new improvements are the mahavihara and the trading dome. I take it that they would be babylon's but a quick google search didn't show any connection between them. What gives?