[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[8housesofelixir]

We shouldn't (at all; ever) assume that they're somehow derivative of Chinese militaristically or culturally and should look west as much as we look north......Records talk a lot about Vietnam/China interactions (often meaning wars), but there's a lot of Vietnam ("Yuan" in Khmer, in what is often now impolite) - Siam interactions as well, especially concerning what to do with Cambodia - the Cambodian king once wrote that Vietnam was his mother, and Siam his father, and that if he fought with one parent, he would flee to the other. (Naturally, this was during a dark time in Cambodian history; not the glory of the Khmer Empire).

One impression I got from reading Vietnam history is that the Vietnamese regimes historically had a "double-faced" way of interacting with their western and southern neighbors - on the one hand numerous Vietnamese Emperors treated their Khmer, Champa, and Lao neighbors as tributary states of the Vietnam "Empire" (like how Chinese Empires treated Korea and Ryukyu), on the other hand a lot of SEA influences and customs had poured into Vietnam court, not to say that these "tributary states" of Vietnam requires a very different "tributary system" esp. when Siam was involved. As you said, they were/are in this extremely unique position of sitting between the SE Asia and China.

And these do makes wonder how will Vietnam be portrayed in the game. (I am very hopeful about this, after seeing the SAE-themed policy card deck.)

 

[Thenewwwguy]

This is what I was thinking would be the way for them to implement the Vietcong strategies without Americanizing it to just the Vietnam War...seeing as they always had jungle & marsh terrain. No movement penalties for those...maybe put them at a disadvantage on open grassland? Pairing free Camouflage for all land units in jungle or marsh covers an unused guerilla niche that would make them a good defensive Civ, seeing as the NFP dual packs seem to pair aggressive with defensive Civs.

Increased visibility in rainforests and forests maybe?

 

[sonicmyst]

I am guessing Vietnam will have bonuses related to rivers (compete with Khmer) and coastal tiles (to hopefully sync with Ha Long Bay)

 

[LoneRebel]

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that a navally-oriented Vietnam could colonize the Philippines on a TSL map (however ahistorical that would be). With their archenemies the Khmer (one of their archenemies anyway) blocking expansion to the west, expanding to the islands would be a good if ahistorical option for a TSL Vietnam. I for one welcome our Vietnamese overlords.

By the way, if Siam/Thailand is ever added back in the game, how about making Naresuan the leader? He's only represented in Civ V in the name of the unique unit.

Another rather more obscure possibility is Champa. I remembered them because the next update in EU4 will add a unique mission tree for them which involves subjugating Tondo and, as a dev suggested, using the Philippine islands as a possible springboard to discover and colonize the Americas. Ahistorical as heck, but badass.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that a navally-oriented Vietnam could colonize the Philippines on a TSL map (however ahistorical that would be). With their archenemies the Khmer (one of their archenemies anyway) blocking expansion to the west, expanding to the islands would be a good if ahistorical option for a TSL Vietnam. I for one welcome our Vietnamese overlords.

By the way, if Siam/Thailand is ever added back in the game, how about making Naresuan the leader? He's only represented in Civ V in the name of the unique unit.

Another rather more obscure possibility is Champa. I remembered them because the next update in EU4 will add a unique mission tree for them which involves subjugating Tondo and, as a dev suggested, using the Philippine islands as a possible springboard to discover and colonize the Americas. Ahistorical as heck, but badass.

the champa and lan xang are more obscure SEA options i’d love to see

 

[8housesofelixir]

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that a navally-oriented Vietnam could colonize the Philippines on a TSL map (however ahistorical that would be). With their archenemies the Khmer (one of their archenemies anyway) blocking expansion to the west, expanding to the islands would be a good if ahistorical option for a TSL Vietnam.

Playing tall is also a choice, Vietnam is relatively "tall" IRL (but not super tall historically, the population boom of Vietnam only happened in 20th century).

Interestingly, the majority of East Asian and SAE civs are already tall civs (Khmer, Japan, Indonesia with Kampung, Korea with their LUA; China is the only exception unless every wonder gives housing or something).

 

[LoneRebel]

Playing tall is also a choice, Vietnam is relatively "tall" IRL (but not super tall historically, the population boom of Vietnam only happened in 20th century).

Yes, same as for the Philippines, and to a greater extent - Vietnam's population was actually greater than the Philippines' population until 2003 (quite recent, to my surprise), and the Philippines has widened the gap since then and is set to overtake Japan before 2030. Just like with Vietnam, the Philippines' population only really boomed in the 20th century, and especially after WW2.

Interestingly, the majority of East Asian and SAE civs are already tall civs (Khmer, Japan, Indonesia with Kampung, Korea with their LUA; China is the only exception unless every wonder gives housing or something).

Which makes sense. By that metric, India and China could be both wide and tall civs simultaneously.

Now that you mention it, no wonder gives housing except for the Hanging Gardens. Wonders that were residential areas, such as Kilwa or Machu Picchu, could provide housing too.

 

[AaronTBD]

Would the UI be something like a Water Puppet Theater? If it is I would say it would be either an improvement or a replacement of the amphitheater. Maybe something like +1 culture from floodplains in the city and an additional culture and +2 tourism after conservation?

 

[notNamed]

We shouldn't (at all; ever) assume that they're somehow derivative of Chinese militaristically or culturally and should look west as much as we look north.

Slightly off-topic, but in my own experience, it goes the other way around. Like how AoE2 tried to give them an Angkor-style architecture, the new Disney movie (Raya and the Last Dragon) dumping them in with the fully Indic tradition, or EA people outside of China being fairly surprised that Vietnam even was a part of the 漢字文化圏 at all. Despite all the hallmarks being present, sometimes even more so than in, say, Japan (for instance, Vietnam had kept Imperial Examinations going, while Japan dropped them fairly quickly).

 

[Txomin]

Would the UI be something like a Water Puppet Theater? If it is I would say it would be either an improvement or a replacement of the amphitheater. Maybe something like +1 culture from floodplains in the city and an additional culture and +2 tourism after conservation?

I have a feeling it would be a building replacement if only because NFP hasn't had any unique buildings yet

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that a navally-oriented Vietnam could colonize the Philippines on a TSL map (however ahistorical that would be). With their archenemies the Khmer (one of their archenemies anyway) blocking expansion to the west, expanding to the islands would be a good if ahistorical option for a TSL Vietnam. I for one welcome our Vietnamese overlords.

I'm not sure how naval focused they would be other than a possible UU. Although on TSL they most likely would focus on some naval aspects considering they would start right off the coast.

Interestingly, the majority of East Asian and SAE civs are already tall civs (Khmer, Japan, Indonesia with Kampung, Korea with their LUA; China is the only exception unless every wonder gives housing or something).

I wouldn't necessarily consider Indonesia a tall civ, besides the Kamung housing bonus. Well at least they have the ability to spread out more on islands.

 

[sweetbrown89]

Increased visibility in rainforests and forests maybe?

Well, rainforest is always gonna have crappy visibility, but I feel like movement is more sensible using real life than just visibility, assuming a starting bias with rainforests.

I'm not sure how naval focused they would be other than a possible UU. Although on TSL they most likely would focus on some naval aspects considering they would start right off the coast.


I wouldn't necessarily consider Indonesia a tall civ, besides the Kamung housing bonus. Well at least they have the ability to spread out more on islands.

I agree that Indonesia (literally all I play as) functions better wide and having forward settle Grand Prix than tall. Yes, they are really agrarian like the Maya, but they need to spread out in order to take advantage of Kampung spam and coastal bonuses.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think it would be neat for a UU to have terrain based stealth. Like the Vietcong could have stealth in rainforest. Iroquois unique Musketman could have stealth in Woods. A Moorish cavalry unit or an Apache archer unit could have stealth in the desert.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I wouldn't necessarily consider Indonesia a tall civ, besides the Kamung housing bonus. Well at least they have the ability to spread out more on islands.

Kampung is among the very few UIs that give 1 full housing and a lot of foods easily. (Compare: Outback Station and Polder only give 0.5 housing; Hacienda give 1 housing but it has a lower food output; Stepwell have more housing but only +2 food maximum before modern techs; Polder have good adjacency bonuses but it is hard to have a Polder triangle; only Outback Station and Mekewap can beat Kampung in food due to adjacency bonuses, and Mekewap is one of the best UI.)

Sure, Indonesia will spread out more on a lot of small islands; but these island cities can easily have a 10+ population long before the introduction of Seastead, so I would consider them as tall.

 

[Txomin]

Stealth in desert would be a really fun ability. Can't cut those down!

 

[AaronTBD]

Would an Argentine civ make sense?

 

[Birch617]

Yes

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Would an Argentine civ make sense?

It would be a good cultural civ. And one of the few options from the Americas with a female leader.

 

[AaronTBD]

It would be a good cultural civ. And one of the few options from the Americas with a female leader.

If you’re talking about Eva Peron it might be too controversial due to the fact that her husband, Juan Peron, helped German officers flee, and made an ideology many Argentines say ruined the country.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

If you’re talking about Eva Peron it might be too controversial due to the fact that her husband, Juan Peron, helped German officers flee, and made an ideology many Argentines say ruined the country.

I didn't say it was a good option.