Civilizations Reborn

Um... I'm just gonna bite the bullet and go ahead and say that a few hours after I asked my question yesterday, I kind of got impatient and wrote up the Mississippi CNM using site names. Considering how grueling work for getting the mystery civ's CNM to use local place names has been, I'm not exactly thrilled to go back to working on the CNM, so the release may end up using site names.
 
Celtia started off ahistoric with my immediately crushing Rome and then Greece and supplanting them as the dominant cultural, political, military and religious power in Europe until the Middle Ages. But then it ended depressingly historical with all of my lands ceding to emerging non-Celtic kingdoms until I had but a sliver of land between Hallstat and Rome and ultimately collapsed due to bad relations and economic downturn. Celtia is perhaps overpowered though my swift elimination of Rome involved some luck where they left their capital undefended soon after spawn.
 
Celtia started off ahistoric with my immediately crushing Rome and then Greece and supplanting them as the dominant cultural, political, military and religious power in Europe until the Middle Ages. But then it ended depressingly historical with all of my lands ceding to emerging non-Celtic kingdoms until I had but a sliver of land between Hallstat and Rome and ultimately collapsed due to bad relations and economic downturn. Celtia is perhaps overpowered though my swift elimination of Rome involved some luck where they left their capital undefended soon after spawn.
I've been really meaning to do a full game playthrough of Celtia sometime. Having a core in so many birth areas sounds both thrilling and frustrating.

As for Celtia's strength, I generally have a hard time judging the difficulty of conquest UHVs in general as all the player usually has to do is build a stack of 8 to 12 moderately powerful units and they can steamroll almost any city.
 
Notepad++ is a program you'll have to download from the internet.
I was referring to the scenario file. I should be able to find it but... I'm incompetent.
 
I've been really meaning to do a full game playthrough of Celtia sometime. Having a core in so many birth areas sounds both thrilling and frustrating.

As for Celtia's strength, I generally have a hard time judging the difficulty of conquest UHVs in general as all the player usually has to do is build a stack of 8 to 12 moderately powerful units and they can steamroll almost any city.
Yeah, with Rome it was literally one unit and a stroke of luck but with Greece it took about 8 or 10 of the UUs and I just walked past their minor cities straight to Athens sacrificed about 4 of the UUs before capturing the city and raising it. Definitely the only challenging goal was the culture goal because the 1st part of the culture goal (highest culture in 200BC) is right around the time that Greece gets conquerors so if you leave any core cities they likely won't collapse before getting a massive culture boost from Mesopotamia/Persia. Also perhaps the settling goal would have been harder had Rome survived. Celtia's production is quite good though, able to churn out units quickly though you're always at a disadvantage to the barbarians.
 
I recommend checking the data for Modifiers.py, and I find that many of the two adjacent civilizations have mismatches compared to Doc1.16,such as the modifier of England and Holy rome .I think the reason for this is that you mislisted the parameter positions when you add the new civilization. My English is not so good, so I may not explain it clearly.
 
To continue my b*tching, I'm getting this error for the Wari victory (same message on subsequent turns). Doesn't really matter since I know I beat it, but I need the self-esteem boost of the victory message. Suggestions?
 

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I was referring to the scenario file. I should be able to find it but... I'm incompetent.
Oh, the files are in the private maps folder.

I recommend checking the data for Modifiers.py, and I find that many of the two adjacent civilizations have mismatches compared to Doc1.16,such as the modifier of England and Holy rome .I think the reason for this is that you mislisted the parameter positions when you add the new civilization. My English is not so good, so I may not explain it clearly.

To continue my b*tching, I'm getting this error for the Wari victory (same message on subsequent turns). Doesn't really matter since I know I beat it, but I need the self-esteem boost of the victory message. Suggestions?

I'll look into these, thanks for the feedback
 
Suggestion: The Olmecs
Spawn at Campeche Bay (1E of the Dani Baa stone tile) in 1600 or 1500 BC
Starting techs: Mythology and Agriculture
Leader: Tezcatlipoca
Favorite civic: Despotism
UB: Colossal Head, replaces Monument, +1 artist slot
UU: Slinger, replaces Archer, cheaper
UP: The Power of Tortilla Logistics: improved resources are connected to the trade network even without roads
UHV:
  1. Mother Culture of Mesoamerica: Build 5 culture-producing buildings by 400 BC
  2. Starting the Long Count: Discover Writing, Arithmetic and Calendar by 400 BC
  3. The Magnetite Artifact: Be the first to discover Compass
Other points:
  • Should collapse around 400 BC, leaving only ruins and allowing Dani Baa to spawn
  • Core = 2-3 tiles in the lowlands around the spawn site
  • Historical area = some tiles in central Mexico and Guatemala (we see Olmec influence from the Valley of Mexico to the Maya areas)
  • Pagan URV2: settle three great artists
  • Colors:
    • Primary: yellowish jade green
    • Secondary color: dark jade green
  • Symbol: the face of a colossal head

Comments:

We don't have any idea what the Olmecs called themselves or their cities, let alone their leaders. I propose Tezcatlipoca as a leader name. It is the name of an Aztec jaguar god that is hypothesized to have originated with the Olmecs, and since jaguars were important in Olmec art, I think it fits. Tezcatlipoca's preferred civic represents the fact that the Olmecs must have had a centralized elite to be able to build large monuments in their main sites.

The colossal head is an obvious UB, but it's tricky to find interesting effects for yet another monument replacement... We mostly know about the Olmecs from their art, so why not an artist slot.

Finding a good UU was hard, since we have almost no knowledge of Olmec warfare. From what I gather (e.g. from this source), their military was mostly defensive, to protect trade caravans. Thus one idea I had was a worker that could defend, but that is kind of lame. There is evidence that they invented the sling, so I went with that. I thought about using the name 'werejaguar', a common motif in Olmec art, but it is unrelated to warfare and redundant with the Aztec jaguar UU.

I'm happy with the UP idea. It sounds like a joke, but it seems that the invention of the tortilla really might be part of what allowed the Olmecs to develop complex states. The tortilla is highly portable, allowing travel on longer distances for military and trading purposes. If you want a more serious sounding name, it could be the Power of Nixtamalization (although then the link with the trade network is less obvious).

The 1st UHV goal offers some flexibility, allowing a concentration of culture buildings in the capital or spreading them out over 2-3 cities. The number of buildings will surely need to be adjusted. The 2nd goal represents their role as forerunners of several well-known Mesoamerican technologies, including the zero, the long count calendar and writing. The 3rd goal uses the very speculative fact that the Olmecs may have invented the magnetic compass 1000 years before the Chinese, as suggested by a magnetic needle artifact. I think it's a very cool goal, but may not work in-game since it requires the player to discover many techs, but somebody should try it. It also ends up similar in practice to the Maya goal of discovering the Europeans first, so other ideas are welcome.

The 2nd goal also has some overlap with other civs' goals. I think the Maya goal of discovering Calendar should be changed. I've been thinking that it's an underwhelming goal for what is probably the most impressive pre-Columbian civilization. A science goal would still be appropriate, though I'm not sure what. Maybe compare them to the rest of the world? Like "Have more technologies than the average civilization in year X".

It also overlaps with the Norte Chico goal of discovering Calendar and Writing. I think both these technologies are more closely associated with Mesoamerican than Andean civs, so I would change the Norte Chico goal to something else. Reading up about them, I learned that they may be unique as a civilization in having developed out of sea-based staple foods. This is known as the "maritime foundation of Andean civilization" theory and it is still debated, but it would be cool to represent it. Thus the replacement goal could be to acquire X seafood resources (depending on what's actually available around the city) by some early date. Cotton can be thrown into the goal too (it was used for fishing nets), implicitly requiring calendar. The maritime foundation hypothesis might also provide a more inspired UU: an upgraded workboat that can create whaling boats from the get-go, and/or create multiple improvements, and/or is built faster (with cotton?).
 
Suggestion: The Olmecs
Spawn at Campeche Bay (1E of the Dani Baa stone tile) in 1600 or 1500 BC
Starting techs: Mythology and Agriculture
Leader: Tezcatlipoca
Favorite civic: Despotism
UB: Colossal Head, replaces Monument, +1 artist slot
UU: Slinger, replaces Archer, cheaper
UP: The Power of Tortilla Logistics: improved resources are connected to the trade network even without roads
UHV:
  1. Mother Culture of Mesoamerica: Build 5 culture-producing buildings by 400 BC
  2. Starting the Long Count: Discover Writing, Arithmetic and Calendar by 400 BC
  3. The Magnetite Artifact: Be the first to discover Compass
Other points:
  • Should collapse around 400 BC, leaving only ruins and allowing Dani Baa to spawn
  • Core = 2-3 tiles in the lowlands around the spawn site
  • Historical area = some tiles in central Mexico and Guatemala (we see Olmec influence from the Valley of Mexico to the Maya areas)
  • Pagan URV2: settle three great artists
  • Colors:
    • Primary: yellowish jade green
    • Secondary color: dark jade green
  • Symbol: the face of a colossal head

Comments:

We don't have any idea what the Olmecs called themselves or their cities, let alone their leaders. I propose Tezcatlipoca as a leader name. It is the name of an Aztec jaguar god that is hypothesized to have originated with the Olmecs, and since jaguars were important in Olmec art, I think it fits. Tezcatlipoca's preferred civic represents the fact that the Olmecs must have had a centralized elite to be able to build large monuments in their main sites.

The colossal head is an obvious UB, but it's tricky to find interesting effects for yet another monument replacement... We mostly know about the Olmecs from their art, so why not an artist slot.

Finding a good UU was hard, since we have almost no knowledge of Olmec warfare. From what I gather (e.g. from this source), their military was mostly defensive, to protect trade caravans. Thus one idea I had was a worker that could defend, but that is kind of lame. There is evidence that they invented the sling, so I went with that. I thought about using the name 'werejaguar', a common motif in Olmec art, but it is unrelated to warfare and redundant with the Aztec jaguar UU.

I'm happy with the UP idea. It sounds like a joke, but it seems that the invention of the tortilla really might be part of what allowed the Olmecs to develop complex states. The tortilla is highly portable, allowing travel on longer distances for military and trading purposes. If you want a more serious sounding name, it could be the Power of Nixtamalization (although then the link with the trade network is less obvious).

The 1st UHV goal offers some flexibility, allowing a concentration of culture buildings in the capital or spreading them out over 2-3 cities. The number of buildings will surely need to be adjusted. The 2nd goal represents their role as forerunners of several well-known Mesoamerican technologies, including the zero, the long count calendar and writing. The 3rd goal uses the very speculative fact that the Olmecs may have invented the magnetic compass 1000 years before the Chinese, as suggested by a magnetic needle artifact. I think it's a very cool goal, but may not work in-game since it requires the player to discover many techs, but somebody should try it. It also ends up similar in practice to the Maya goal of discovering the Europeans first, so other ideas are welcome.

The 2nd goal also has some overlap with other civs' goals. I think the Maya goal of discovering Calendar should be changed. I've been thinking that it's an underwhelming goal for what is probably the most impressive pre-Columbian civilization. A science goal would still be appropriate, though I'm not sure what. Maybe compare them to the rest of the world? Like "Have more technologies than the average civilization in year X".

It also overlaps with the Norte Chico goal of discovering Calendar and Writing. I think both these technologies are more closely associated with Mesoamerican than Andean civs, so I would change the Norte Chico goal to something else. Reading up about them, I learned that they may be unique as a civilization in having developed out of sea-based staple foods. This is known as the "maritime foundation of Andean civilization" theory and it is still debated, but it would be cool to represent it. Thus the replacement goal could be to acquire X seafood resources (depending on what's actually available around the city) by some early date. Cotton can be thrown into the goal too (it was used for fishing nets), implicitly requiring calendar. The maritime foundation hypothesis might also provide a more inspired UU: an upgraded workboat that can create whaling boats from the get-go, and/or create multiple improvements, and/or is built faster (with cotton?).

Amazing!

Quipu (the writing and calendar goal) was chosen because the Norte Chico were believed to be the first to create quipu: a cotton based system of either writing or proto-writing (experts are still trying to piece together the full breadth of the system so it's unclear as to whether it qualifies as a complex writing system)

The UHV sounds really good already, but I'll do some looking of my own to see if there's anything more I can do.

On the topic of Pagan Religions, I'm currently reusing Teotl for the Mississippians, does anyone have suggestions for their Pagan Religion, Temple, and Victory Condition?
 
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Quipu (the writing and calendar goal) was chosen because the Norte Chico were believed to be the first to create quipu: a cotton based system of either writing or proto-writing (experts are still trying to piece together the full breadth of the system so it's unclear as to whether it qualifies as a complex writing system)
I know, I'm just saying that if one and only one of the pre-Columbian progenitor civs should have such a goal, it should be the Olmecs. It's fine to have the overlap too.
On the topic of Pagan Religions, I'm currently reusing Teotl for the Mississippians, does anyone have suggestions for their Pagan Religion, Temple, and Victory Condition?
It needs to be something else, but I have no idea what either. It might be awkward if we end up picking elements from a totally unrelated native people, so tread carefully.
 
It needs to be something else, but I have no idea what either. It might be awkward if we end up picking elements from a totally unrelated native people, so tread carefully.
Oh absolutely. I mentioned Teotl because I'm currently using it as a placeholder for while I'm testing their UHV and AI and was wondering if anyone had any knowledge on what to replace it with. I'll figure something out before release.
 
The Natchez people (one of the last surviving mound-builder cultures) seem to have worshiped the Sun, with a lot of sun iconography and symbolism embedded in their culture.

Per Brittanica:
Traditional Natchez religion venerated the Sun, which was represented by a perpetual fire kept burning in a temple. All fires in a village, including the sacred fire, were allowed to die once a year on the eve of the midsummer Green Corn ceremony, or Busk. The sacred fire was remade at dawn of the festival day, and all the village hearths were then lit anew from the sacred flames.

Natchez social organization was notable for its caste system; the system drew from and supported Natchez religious beliefs and classified individuals as suns, nobles, honoured people, and commoners. Persons of the sun caste were required to marry commoners; the offspring of female suns and commoners were suns, while the children of male suns and commoners belonged to the caste of honoured people. The heads of villages also claimed descent from the Sun, and the monarch was referred to as the Great Sun. He was entitled to marry several wives and to maintain servants; upon his death his wives and some servants, along with any others who wished to join him in the afterlife, were ritually sacrificed.
No idea how closely (if at all) this resembles the original Mississippian/Mound-Builder culture, but it's something at least. (Incidentally, the head of a village was called 'Great Sun' or Yak-stalchil, while his younger brother was the village war-chief, called 'Tattooed Serpent' or Obalalkabiche. Either of those might be an alternate UU, or even a potential leader-head for Mississipians.


Checking the 'Mississippian culture' page again, it references a 'Southeastern Ceremonial Complex' that identifies the characteristic iconography and mythology adopted by the Mississippians. 'Red Horn' and the 'Horned Serpent' both seem to play significant roles in Mississippian cosmology (Horned Serpent belonging to the watery underworld, while Red Horn being identified as a 'morning star').


One possibility for a unique religious victory condition, would be something related to the 'Green Corn Ceremony' (called Busk or Puskita). Something related to owning a certain number of corn resources? That'd fit neatly with the whole 'spread your cities across the whole Mississippi basin' UHV condition.
 
I did a bit of research and map checking, and a large majority of the Mississippian territory would later be known for their practice of the medicinal/religious system of Midewiwin. This would give us a building and a name, and potentially ahistorical such an action may or may not be, I could mix those with the Green Corn Ceremony URV Publicoa suggested and this image from the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex for its icon
 
Really cool ideas about the Olmecs, I especially like the names of the first 2 UHVs!

Here's an alternative proposal for the UP:
People of the Rubber (the meaning of "Olmec" in nahuatl). +1 hammer for jungle/rainforest/forest tiles.
The Olmecs were known for their extraction of latex and rubber production. They were knowledgeable about processing latex in different ways to obtain different properties in the rubber, depending on whether they wanted to use it for sandals, balls (for ball game), as construction additives, etc. So it's a kind of very early polymer science. They also worked with natural bitumen and similarly knew how to process it in different ways to get different properties out of it (and use it as additive for different uses, such as in boat making or for coating buildings).

It might be interesting for UHV 3 to represent their long trade network (what is linked to the Tortilla Logistics UP, which does have a very funny name). As Steb says, the Olmecs are also known for establishing a far-reaching trading network, so perhaps their UHV could be something like: secure gold, jade, salt, stone, incense, and rubber by XX year.

And for the Colossal Heads, AFAIK, they were used to strengthen the legitimacy (perhaps divine right?) of the powerful ruling class. I would propose to give them a free Statesman slot.

Finally, yes, in the period Steb proposes (1500 BC - 400 BC) they flourished in the traditional Olmec heartland, with their main city being La Venta (don't know the Mayan name you'd have to use), but after the collapse of the Olmec State, in all likelihood the people moved North and established what is known as the Epi-Olmec civilization (centered in Tres Zapotes and later Cerro de las Mesas). The Epi-Olmec civilization is considered a successor state to the Olmecs, sharing many cultural traits, but with the main difference that the State was never as centralized in the ruler and didn't reach as high levels of cultural productivity. Tres Zapotes might actually have been ruled as an early republic instead. The Epi-Olmec civilization lasted into 300 CE, at that time a different culture (known as the Classic Veracruz culture) spread in the rest of the Gulf Coast, but I don't know to what extent this could be considered also a successor state. I'm pretty sure there's no space on the map to represent even a shift in the core to the Epi-Olmec area, but perhaps it's an idea for the larger map.
 
Played a couple civs and noticed some don't have the historical areas for UHVs marked on the map. Rus and Chad were the ones I noticed. Intentional?

Also, do Mongols not have conquerors against Muscovy, Khazars and Rus?

Edit: Someone said it somewhere, maybe you could add a Golden Horde civ?
 
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Really cool ideas about the Olmecs, I especially like the names of the first 2 UHVs!

Here's an alternative proposal for the UP:
People of the Rubber (the meaning of "Olmec" in nahuatl). +1 hammer for jungle/rainforest/forest tiles.
The Olmecs were known for their extraction of latex and rubber production. They were knowledgeable about processing latex in different ways to obtain different properties in the rubber, depending on whether they wanted to use it for sandals, balls (for ball game), as construction additives, etc. So it's a kind of very early polymer science. They also worked with natural bitumen and similarly knew how to process it in different ways to get different properties out of it (and use it as additive for different uses, such as in boat making or for coating buildings).
Thanks!

I had sort of dismissed the whole rubber thing, in part because rubber isn't (yet) a resource on the map, and in part because my (perhaps wrong) understanding was that the name 'Olmec' was used 2000 years later by the Aztecs to refer to the people living in the same area, but not to the Olmec civilization per se. There's some evidence that rubber was used by the Olmecs, but their name is no indication that rubber was especially important to them. But yes, a power using rubber could be work. However, I think allowing resource exploitation without roads is a fun UP for a very early civ, so I still like my idea better! (EDIT: I rewrote the first two sentences of this paragraph.)
It might be interesting for UHV 3 to represent their long trade network (what is linked to the Tortilla Logistics UP, which does have a very funny name). As Steb says, the Olmecs are also known for establishing a far-reaching trading network, so perhaps their UHV could be something like: secure gold, jade, salt, stone, incense, and rubber by XX year.
Almost none of these resources exist on the current map, but along these lines one of my ideas was "Acquire X resources by Y".
And for the Colossal Heads, AFAIK, they were used to strengthen the legitimacy (perhaps divine right?) of the powerful ruling class. I would propose to give them a free Statesman slot.
That works too.
Finally, yes, in the period Steb proposes (1500 BC - 400 BC) they flourished in the traditional Olmec heartland, with their main city being La Venta (don't know the Mayan name you'd have to use), but after the collapse of the Olmec State, in all likelihood the people moved North and established what is known as the Epi-Olmec civilization (centered in Tres Zapotes and later Cerro de las Mesas). The Epi-Olmec civilization is considered a successor state to the Olmecs, sharing many cultural traits, but with the main difference that the State was never as centralized in the ruler and didn't reach as high levels of cultural productivity. Tres Zapotes might actually have been ruled as an early republic instead. The Epi-Olmec civilization lasted into 300 CE, at that time a different culture (known as the Classic Veracruz culture) spread in the rest of the Gulf Coast, but I don't know to what extent this could be considered also a successor state. I'm pretty sure there's no space on the map to represent even a shift in the core to the Epi-Olmec area, but perhaps it's an idea for the larger map.
Unfortunately, as you say, that isn't possible if we want to spawn Zapotec Dani Baa. The map is much too small. Even in the future map, it would be borderline. There are many small- or medium-sized Mesoamerican polities that we would like to include, but can't, and I think the Epi-Olmecs are one such polity.

Maybe there should be the possibility that if the Olmecs survive past 400 BC, they become the main power between Central Mexico and the Maya, instead of the Zapotecs. In any given game, you'd get one or the other.
 
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I'm really liking looking at all the Native American Civilization suggestions! I'm wondering what people think about including more North-of-the-Caribbean civilizations. Here's an idea for the Iroquois Confederation:

Start Date: 1450 AD
Leader: Hiawatha (could use the leaderhead of Logan from CIV Colonization)
Capital: Onondaga
Unique Ability: Haudenosaunee - Independents do not enter your territory when at peace. Independents join you when attacked.
Unique Unit: Mohawk - Replaces Arquebusier. Starts with Woodsman I, II. Available earlier (not sure which tech exactly)
Unique Building: Longhouse - Replaces Granary. +1 Production and +1 Commerce from Forests
UHV 1: Mourning War - Destroy at least as many units as you lose
UHV 2: Beaver Wars - Control the Beaver Wars Territory in 1700
UHV 3: French and Indian War - Allow no inland European cities North of Mexico (there's probably a better way to specify the geographic region) and have a Defensive Pact with at least one European in 1776

With the suggestion of the Mississippians being very infrastructure/culture focused, I thought a more war-oriented spin to the UHV's would be interesting. The Iroquois would serve as kind of a Native American version of the Turks, collecting the occasional spawns of Native (i.e. Independent) units and trying to gobble up the interior of the continent. It also greatly benefits them to leave forests, to provide better defense and movement for Mohawks and better production from Longhouses.

The twist is that while you can raise an army quickly with Haudenosaunee, you're going to want to be efficient and very strategic with your military engagements to achieve UHV 1 (Note: UHV 1 doesn't have a deadline so as long as you have UHV 2 and UHV 3, you will satisfy all three the moment UHV 1 is true). This can be difficult, especially going against technologically more advanced adversaries along the coast.

The second UHV is to encourage expansion through conquest and settlers westward, probably coming into conflict with the Mississippians if they're still around (I'm not sure where they are set to spawn, Central Ohio IIRC?). See the Beaver War territory here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:5NationsExpansion.jpg
(It's roughly the Contested zone visible in the attachment)

The Third UHV might be trivial because the English and French AI's aren't really inclined to settle inland cities anyway. Could be tweaked to have a later deadline and include American cities (but that might be too hard). Preventing all cities (not just inland ones) might be too hard/ too ahistorical. Also something to note is Onondaga is on a tile that is in neither the American nor the Canadian flip zones, so the Iroquois won't get wiped out solely on a Civ spawn, although they may lose a lot of territory. I don't imagining getting a Defensive pact with a European will be too challenging either. Suggestions encouraged!

Anyway, those are my thoughts! Trying to bring more life to the random Mohawk spawns around the Great Lakes and hopefully offering a unique challenge. Thanks for reading!
 

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Played a couple civs and noticed some don't have the historical areas for UHVs marked on the map. Rus and Chad were the ones I noticed. Intentional?

Also, do Mongols not have conquerors against Muscovy, Khazars and Rus?

Edit: Someone said it somewhere, maybe you could add a Golden Horde civ?

I must have forgot to mark their UHV areas. I'll include a fix in the coming update.
The mongols should have conquerors against them. I'll look into whether or not the actually do.
 
Does anyone have thoughts on what should always/usually cause the Mississippians to collapse?
 
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