Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Berzerker, May 8, 2009.
By both definitions, the Catholic Church is heretical.
And you are assuming I am a fundamentalist Christian instead of an agnostic.
I was fine with this thread until Bill started throwing around 'heresy', and then got on MobBoss for disagreeing with him. I can't believe I am actually coming to his defense, but that carries about as much weight with me as Israelis claiming that anybody who disagrees with their policies are anti-Semitic.
I'm just saying that the the fundamentalists Protestants are heretics. Of course, so are the Catholics, but that's from an angle where everyone is one.
What about the Eastern Orthodox? Why do you always forget about em?!
Looks like the Catholic priests may have been following Jesus' example - except they did it in private instead of public. Just like the protestants have it backwards on the praying thing.
To help you religious types out - pray in private, lay hands on the children in public.
I've been saying for more than a page that the Orthodox are called the Orthodox because, unlike the Catholic Church, they didn't pervert the Nicene Creed. If anything, the Catholics are the heretics compared to the Orthodoxals.
But each time a Catholic vs. Protestant fight happens, the Eastern Orthodox is left in the spectator's box . Must be good to be an Orthodox and dont have to put up with the Protestant vs. Catholic shenanigans .
Well, the Orthodox have had their own shenanigans, like the whole Great Schism and Fourth Crusade business and the Uniates and the Old Believers and so forth. But avoiding extra ones is always a plus.
Possibly because the Orthodox do not have a huge presence in the areas that Protestants do. so they aren't really a part of the conflict in many people's minds.
But he didn't pray, he laid hands on them and departed. You're confusing why someone brought the children to him with what he actually did.
But he told them not to pray standing in the synagogues and streets. He told them to pray in seclusion, behind a closed door... Thats what he said, and you've turned it upside down. You have Jesus telling his followers to pray standing in the synagogues and streets as long as they're sincere. That aint logical, certainly not with the additional instructions on praying behind closed doors.
It's all about interpretation I guess. But speaking of little kids and heresy, I'd wish they'd stop telling their kids and youth that the world is a few thousand years old and lying about Noah's Flood. 'Cause, sheesh, it's annoying to deal with the consequences of that.
When one blesses and lays hands upon someone, they are praying for them. /sheesh.
No I havent...I have explained to you the WHY of it. All you have to do is actually THINK about what the passage says to comprehend that. Its praying as a hypocrite that he is telling them not to do.
And the bible is full of instances where he prayed among the disciples.
Again, Jesus blessed the food of the multitudes in front of everyone. He also prayed together with the disciples on many occasions. Isnt blessing food before a meal prayer? Of course it is. Trying understanding in total instead of trying to twist a single thing into something it doesnt really say.
Unless you read it in the womb, how were you born christian? I am a christian by choice...not by birth.
If you don't set about donning the Purple and resurrecting the Romani Empire quick smart I'm going to be one angry ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra reactionary
I never understand the disinterest of christians to look at the history surrounding the creation of the bible. Afterall what good is faith without truth.
here's the passage, it says nothing about Jesus praying in the synagogues and streets, it says nothing about Jesus praying at all.
"Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 But Jesus said, Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven. 15 And He laid His hands on them and departed from there."
Now if praying was the same thing as the laying of hands, why did the author make a distinction between the two. Then after making a distinction between the two, the author clearly left off any mention of Jesus praying. The laying of hands is about healing or baptism, not praying in synagogues or streets - the story doesn't even mention a specific location. You just made that assumption...
And the hypocrites pray so others can see them... If you were right he wouldn't tell them to pray behind closed doors, he would have told them to pray standing in the synagogues and streets like the hypocrites but to be sincere...he didn't.
He was their teacher, did he take them to a synagogue for this prayer?
I'm trying to twist what the Bible says?
Here's what it says
Jesus told his followers how to avoid the appearance of hypocrisy - by praying behind closed doors. And your advice is avoid hypocrisy by praying right next to the hypocrites? How are we supposed to know the difference between hypocrites and sincere Christians when y'all are standing next to each other praying? We cant, you have your reward just like the hypocrites.
Mobboss, you're reading into the text, adding details for context.
The first sentence is why the children were brought to Jesus. We don't know whose motivation that is, we just know it was the motivation. And then we're told what Jesus did, and there's no mention of praying.
The way to go would have been to switch to Mark 10, where Jesus is described as 'blessing' the children. We could then argue which text is more accurate (given that Matthew is a less accurate text, we would normally side with Mark). And we could argue whether "Strong's G2127 - eulogeō " is the same as "Strong's G4336 - proseuchomai "
Importanly, the text described that the chldren were brought to Jesus so that he could "proseuchomai " for them (which is forbidden (in public) in Matthew 6:6). There's no mention of Jesus doing that. He, elsewhere, is described as "eulogeō " over them.
But given that a rabbi's JOB is to bless things in public, maybe it's not referring to praying anyway.
I think most of us can agree that National Prayer Day seems closer to the hypocritcal, look-at-me-pray-thing than a spontaneous blessing of children.
Seriously...have you ever been to church? I mean really. Have you never, ever seen someone put their hands upon another person and PRAY?
Please...just go away. This is pathetic.
I got news for you...prayer is also involved in HEALING AND BAPTISM.
He said his house - read synagogue/temple - would be a house of PRAYER. Look it up.
Again...too pathetic for words.
El_Mac, I suggest that both are a form of prayer, again, for example, when I 'bless' my food prior to a meal, I am indeed praying over it. The 4336 is simply a stronger version - praying 'in earnest' and at length....which btw, is the root word for the prayer used in Matthew 19.
I dont think I am wrong here at all, and it would seem the strongs concordance backs that up.
EDIT: It occurs to me that maybe bezerker doesnt comprehend that there are indeed different forms and types of prayer. Jesus prayed at his Baptism, he blessed thousands upon thousands, he prayed with the disciples outside and certainly not alone....AND he often secluded himself to pray alone as well. DIfferent forms and types of prayer....but prayer never the less.
I haven't seen Jesus do it, have you? Are we dealing with what Jesus did back then or what "someone" in a church did Sunday? The laying of hands referred to either healing or baptism, Jesus didn't pray - if the author wanted us to think he prayed they would have said Jesus laid his hands on the children and prayed and then departed. The author didn't do that, you did.
Maybe, maybe not... They aren't all the same. You've yet to establish where this incident happened, you're assuming Jesus did this in violation of his prohibition on praying in the synagogues and streets, ie he "prayed" before a crowd of strangers. I dont even see that in the story, thats your invention. Funny thing is you're trying to create a contradiction in Jesus' teachings where one does not exist because you think praying in public is fine. So I'll have to ask again, how do the rest of us know if we are watching a hypocrite pray in public or a "sincere Christian"?
You didn't answer the question: did Jesus take his disciples to a synagogue for this prayer?
Hmm...dont ya mean giving thanks? You actually pray over food? For what?
Does Strongs ignore what Jesus said about praying behind closed doors too? Why did Jesus tell his followers to fast in secret? By your argument, Jesus really meant its okay to let everyone know you are fasting if you're sincere, right?
Mobby, how did Jesus advise his followers on avoiding the hypocrisy of those who pray standing in the synagogues and streets? Did he say,
"pray with the hypocrites, but do so sincerely"; or,
"do not pray as the hypocrites who stand in the synagogues and streets, but you close the door and pray"?
Thats what Jesus did, where we dont know - the countryside east of the Jordan?
His baptism was in a river, not a synagogue or street. So he prayed with his disciples "outside", what does that mean - a synagogue or street? Where did Jesus explain these differences between prayer in seclusion and prayer in a synagogue?
There's no mention of praying, and no mention of praying in a synagogue or city street. Children were brought to him and Mobby assumes this was all done in that setting. The text doesn't even support that assumption...
Separate names with a comma.