Colbert Rips the "Religious" Hypocrites

[Ziggy Stardust]

US Politics, serious business. The US needs an atheist as president. Not going to happen of course, but this is really, really, really ... what's the words I'm looking for? Medievally Inane.

 

[BC1871]

Obama is not even Christian...I'm not sure what he is...but Christian he is not.

 

[Cutlass]

Obama is not even Christian...I'm not sure what he is...but Christian he is not.

Of course he's a Christian. There is absolutely zero reason to think that he is not.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm not sure I'd call that public prayer, standing in the synagogues and streets is how Jesus identified the hypocrites so it sounds like an audience of non-participants is required. But yes, Jesus said pray in secret and the Father will reward you in secret. Pray in public and you have your reward from men. How do you interpret that any other way?

I interpret it as I do everything else in the Bible which is not consistent with the rest - with a grain of salt. I would take it to mean to not be hypocritical in your prayers. That you don't have to pray in public to try to convince others of your faith.

As I already mentioned, praying exclusively in private has apparently never been a trait of any Christian sect, yet you seem to think it is dogma from a single passage.

 

[RedRalph]

Then I'm going so far deep in Hell I'm in danger of popping out the other side.

I dont want to know what the punishment for eating raw sausages with the tip of them dipped in horseradish sauce is

 

[Phlegmak]

Obama is not even Christian...I'm not sure what he is...but Christian he is not.

Aside from the fact that he's a Christian, why do you think he's not a Christian?

 

[MobBoss]

I interpret it as I do everything else in the Bible which is not consistent with the rest - with a grain of salt. I would take it to mean to not be hypocritical in your prayers. That you don't have to pray in public to try to convince others of your faith.

As I already mentioned, praying exclusively in private has apparently never been a trait of any Christian sect, yet you seem to think it is dogma from a single passage.

If even Formaldehyde is able to get it, I am not sure why you cant Beserker.

 

[El_Machinae]

As I said, in how I read the sentence, its obvious to me that its implied. And fwiw, thats how its been given to me by a number of pastors and churches. You, being a non-christian, probably have motives simply just to argue for arguing sake. /shrug.

See, that's an ad hom, a term sometimes used around here. Whatever my views are regarding the divine truth of the Bible, it doesn't matter with regards to understanding a couple paragraphs.

It's not clear whose goal it was to have the children prayed for. It very well could have been the parents who were bringing the children forward so that they could be prayed for.

Its also funny that you who complain so much about biblical literalists, decide to be so literal in this particular case.

Again, I have pointed out repeatedly how Jesus prayed with others, not in seculsion, not a lone in a room. Dont want to acknowledge that? /whatever.

I don't care about the debate about whether Jesus wanted people to pray in public or not. It's not something about Christianity I have any investment in; public praying doesn't bother me, and I don't think it hurts anyone. If it's 'non-Christian', I don't care.

My complaining about literalists is that it's a major cause of ignorance regarding natural history in the world, something that does affect me. I don't care if churchs pump out kids who pray in public. I do care if they're pumping out kids who were deceived into thinking the world is a few thousand years old.

 

[Antilogic]

Obama is not even Christian...I'm not sure what he is...but Christian he is not.

It's generally a good idea to take the propaganda the Republican party puts out with a grain of salt. The Democrats too, but that's not applicable in this case.

And even if he isn't Christian...so what? I'd be happy to see a fellow agnostic/atheist/nonbeliever (pick your term of choice) leading the country.

 

[Bad Player]

Sorry mobby, but a direct command from Jesus overrides any particular action that he did. If you want to emulate Jesus, become a monk.

I think it's the motivation behind why you are or not praying in public (ie to receive the praise of society or what). In the OT Daniel prayed in public knowing he would be persecuted for it but Daniel did the right thing in that context.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Honestly, this is one of the funniest threads I've read here in a long time. It seems more than obvious to me that Jesus was more concerned that people pray privately so they wouldn't be unduly influenced by others' words or actions - no matter what those hypothetical other people might be praying about. Prayer is supposed to be a personal communication between an individual and a deity, right? Like lots of ways we communicate today, we're more likely to be honest and sincere in private than in public - because we either don't want others to know our personal feelings/opinions, or because we're afraid to be seen as different from other people.

Jesus understood the concept of "peer pressure." Peer pressure - to conform with the actions/beliefs/wants of the majority even though that may not be in the best interests of the individual or society - didn't just spring into existence when some 20th-century psychologist/psychiatrist coined the term. It's existed for as long as humans have been able to communicate with each other and lived in groups. Jesus wanted people to pray according to their own ideas and hopes, not what other people thought they should pray for.

I think this business of a "closed door" is being taken far too literally in this thread. To some extent, the "door" is a metaphor for "privacy." After all, Jesus didn't haul a house around with him when he traveled. This whole issue seems to me like Jesus simply meant that people should pray privately, with dignity, and be honest in what/how they prayed.

As for Obama, who cares if he prays? That's nobody's business but his own. As long as he doesn't slough off responsibility for his decisions on God/Jesus/whoever, it shouldn't matter at all.

 

[Imperialmajesty]

US Politics, serious business. The US needs an atheist as president. Not going to happen of course, but this is really, really, really ... what's the words I'm looking for? Medievally Inane.

Jefferson was a Deist, he believed that God created everything and left the Universe to its own devices. Not technically Atheism, but very close to it.

There is also debate on the religion of Lincoln...

Honestly, I think we have had quite a few closet Atheist's. I mean, more or less, presidents are an educated lot. The educated tend to be more skeptical of religious claims. You mean to tell me that there was not one President siting in Church thinking "This is a bunch of bunk, but without it, no way can I get elected"?

 

[Berzerker]

If even Formaldehyde is able to get it, I am not sure why you cant Beserker.

If even El Machinae is able to get it, I am not sure why you can't MobBoss

no offense El...

I think this business of a "closed door" is being taken far too literally in this thread. To some extent, the "door" is a metaphor for "privacy." After all, Jesus didn't haul a house around with him when he traveled. This whole issue seems to me like Jesus simply meant that people should pray privately, with dignity, and be honest in what/how they prayed.

yup, well, how dignified can you be asking God to bail you out of a jam

 

[Berzerker]

I interpret it as I do everything else in the Bible which is not consistent with the rest - with a grain of salt. I would take it to mean to not be hypocritical in your prayers. That you don't have to pray in public to try to convince others of your faith.

As I already mentioned, praying exclusively in private has apparently never been a trait of any Christian sect, yet you seem to think it is dogma from a single passage.

We're debating what Jesus said, not what Christians have done in his name over the centuries. And I dont see evidence of early Christians engaging in public prayer in the terms used by Jesus. They were persecuted and one of the accusations against them was because of their reclusive religious practices. That may have changed when those early generations passed away and Christians came to power within the Roman empire. Yes, Jesus identified his objection to praying in the streets and synagogues - it was being seen by others and thats why the hypocrites do it. So he said dont do it...

Dont stand in the streets and synagogues praying like the hypocrites to be seen by others, pray in your room.

You and Mobby think that means he wants people to pray in the synagogues and streets as long as they're sincere. If you like consistency, what did Jesus teach about fasting? He said dont let others know you are fasting (dont be "seen" fasting). Dont show your piety off for strangers. Obviously rooms wont always be available for prayer, that does not mean Jesus wanted Christians to pray in the streets and synagogues. If you have a room available to pray, does Jesus want you to go to the street and pray in front of people "sincerely"? Mobby still hasn't explained how we're supposed to know the difference between the sincere and the hypocrites standing next to them.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Jefferson was a Deist, he believed that God created everything and left the Universe to its own devices. Not technically Atheism, but very close to it.

There is also debate on the religion of Lincoln...

I meant one in the near future. But you're right and I stand corrected. Anyone who doesn't tout his piousness every possibly chance he/she gets. For that I am grateful for someone like Obama, who is Christian but doesn't feel the need to drag God into every single one of his speeches, and at least doesn't end them with the Gawd Awful: "May God continue to bless the US", which is pukeworthy

Honestly, I think we have had quite a few closet Atheist's. I mean, more or less, presidents are an educated lot. The educated tend to be more skeptical of religious claims. You mean to tell me that there was not one President siting in Church thinking "This is a bunch of bunk, but without it, no way can I get elected"?

Isn't that sad? I heard people, who I know aren't complete dolts have a conversation whether Obama was atheist, because if he was, they wouldn't vote for him. And that, quite simply, is effed up. Especially because it is shrugged off as well.

 

[Berzerker]

I am not. I fully accept what he said in the proper context. You dont. Its only moronic if you dont look at it in the proper context.

You argued if it aint prayer in a room it violates my interpretation of Jesus teaching, but my interpretation is Jesus' advised against praying in the synagogues and streets. Therefore you equated praying outside a room with praying in the synagogues and streets.

Of course he knew rooms werent always available...that simply gives more weight to my arguement than it does yours in that praying alone in a room wasnt the point - not being a hypocrite was the point. I comprehend that. You dont. Simple.

You are defending praying in the synagogues and streets, not praying outside a room. Thats a strawman you've been arguing against. My argument is he doesn't want Christians praying in public - ie in the streets where others will see them. Your interpretation is he doesn't care if Christians pray in the streets as long as they are sincere. If the words "dont do it" wont register, and the "room" metaphor doesn't provide the needed context, there is no way to convince you otherwise. I understand your argument, Jesus aint a fan of hypocrisy so he wants sincere prayer where ever it is. The problem with that argument is he didn't say it, he wants sincere prayer and he wants it private, not public where the hypocrites pray so they may be seen by others.

If you havent picked up on it yet, there is more than one greek word for prayer. What he was referring to was to not be hypocrital in simply praying to get personal attention. A point you dont seem to grasp.

Mobby, are you still talking about the word "pray" in the opening verse(s) about why children were brought to Jesus? That part does not tell us what Jesus actually did. And you still haven't even bothered to show this all happened in a synagogue or street. Where does Jesus explain how Christians are supposed to avoid attention when they're praying with the attention seeking hypocrites? Mobby, people dont pray in the streets to avoid attention

Thats only secondary into describing the behavior of the hypocrite.

Huh?

I have several times now. Even bolded the word pray for you when you denied it was even in the scripture. Apparently you are unable to see it. /shrug.

You bolded a word used by someone else describing the motive of strangers bringing children to Jesus, not the words used to describe what Jesus actually did. But I'm not talking about that here, I'm talking about geography, location, where did this happen? A synagogue, a street, or a room or cave or campfire or river... If this is proof Jesus prayed in a synagogue or street you need a location in the story, I dont see one.

Let me be clear. Jesus wasnt a hypocrite. Again, you utterly miss the context of what he was trying to teach.

No, the people who pray in the streets are the hypocrites. You are defending them by accusing Jesus of doing it too. He may have, maybe not, maybe it was unavoidable, but its clear from what he said he prefers private prayer over public displays. The "command" was quite strong and very straightforward. Dont do this, do that... What is this? Praying in the streets. What is that? A room...a metaphor for privacy or seclusion. Dont pray in the streets because thats what the hypocrites do, instead pray in your room. You've turned that into, pray in the streets but be sincere.

The greek word used in the scripture with the children is the same exact greek word he used in his warning. Again, learn to use a concordance and get back to me.

I have one, its propping up my monitor The word "pray" is not used to describe what Jesus did. You are assuming he prayed because he laid hands on them. Well, the author made the distinction between two acts - laying hands and praying - but used only one to describe what Jesus did.

He didnt say this nor do I allege he did anywhere. I simply read the scripture...unlike you I dont try to change the context of it.

You are defending the practice of praying in the streets

He didnt mention anything about assuming a room was available did he? No.

I see you're back to the strawman. Didn't you just agree "room" is not to be taken literally but as a metaphor for privacy?

He certainly didnt always pray alone. The scripture supports that. If I take Jesus as my example....

Did he pray in the synagogues and streets? This is just another strawman Mobby, now you're trying to equate a few people praying together with praying in the streets.

Giving thanks IS prayer. /wow. I didnt know you were that ignorant over this stuff.

No, prayer is asking for something and giving thanks is what we say when we get it.

If you knew what Strongs even was, you would know the answer to this. You dont, thus your question speaks volumes about your knowledge of such things.

You didn't answer the question again. What does Strong's say about the term used to describe what Jesus did to the children. Is it the same word for pray in the opening verse where the children are being brought to Jesus? Then what does laying hands mean?

Corrected that for you to reflect what the scripture actually says. Is the word 'pray' actually that hard for you to include?

It doesn't appear in the text posted in this thread, are you using another Bible? Here is the NIV

14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

I dont see the word pray in there. Nor do I see synagogue or street... Yer gonna make Jesus out to be a hypocrite based on that lack of evidence?

Nope. You just dont grasp what he is teaching is all.

Apparently he was teaching us to pray in the streets sincerely, by telling us go to our room and close the door and pray in secret so our Father will reward us in secret. Isn't that a rather strange description of sincere prayer in the streets with all the hypocrites?

Not dodging the questions. I have answered them several times now. Accurately.

I can list all the questions you ignored but that would take another 10-15 minutes.
I've repeated several in this post, give em a try...

Well, this has dragged on long enough for you to start saying things I never said. I never said praying along side hypocrites was ok. I said that the point of his teaching was to not be a hypocrite, AND to point out that there are most certainly different forms (and words) for prayer in the Greek. A fact you seem determined to ignore.

Wait a minute, you said it was okay to pray in the streets if you are sincere. Isn't that where the hypocrites are also praying? How do the sincere avoid the appearance of hypocrisy? Thats one of those questions you keep dodging.

As for HIS house.....

Try harder. You might get it yet someday.

Whats yer point Mobby? Seriously, you ask me some question about House of prayer as if thats proof Jesus prayed in the synagogues and streets?

I think the text supports his intent to do so, yes. By the way, laying hands on and blessing IS indeed prayer. Another fact you dont seem to grasp.

The text doesn't mention blessing, you keep adding words that aint there. Does the text support your conclusion that this all happened in a synagogue or street? That is your conclusion, right? If it isn't, your argument here is irrelevant - it is not an example of Jesus praying in the streets and synagogues.

Jesus spent most of his time in the streets, with crowds of people following him everywhere he went. I dont think its an outrageous assumption at all.

Was this one of those times in a street surrounded by a crowd? The text doesn't tell us where he didn't pray over the children.

They sure dont need it in order to misinterpret scripture.

the words speak for themselves

 

[El_Machinae]

Mark mentions blessing. Its root word is different from the 'praying' that Jesus suggests be done in private. Matthew does not mention Jesus 'praying' for the children. And Berzerker's interpretation of that scene is an interpretation that allows Jesus to not be a hypocrite.

 

[Bad Player]

Dont show your piety off

I suspect that's what Jesus was talking about.

 

[MobBoss]

If even El Machinae is able to get it, I am not sure why you can't MobBoss

no offense El...

El Mac has a long history here in the OT of not getting things biblical. Thats how he got introduced to Strongs once upon a time. You should search that up sometime...

yup, well, how dignified can you be asking God to bail you out of a jam

Never been in a jam yourself? hmm?

 

[MobBoss]

It doesn't appear in the text posted in this thread, are you using another Bible? Here is the NIV

14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

I dont see the word pray in there. Nor do I see synagogue or street... Yer gonna make Jesus out to be a hypocrite based on that lack of evidence?

When it gets to the point where you start doing this its over. You forgot to add the verse 13 just before that which says:

Matthew 19:12-14 (New International Version)

13Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.

Please note what I highlighted in the NIV - the bible you chose to quote from.

Game over. You just lost whatever shred of intellectual honesty you had in this arguement. Badly.

Proverbs tells me that I shouldnt continue such an arguement with such a person as yourself. Consider this one over.