Colbert Rips the "Religious" Hypocrites

[Formaldehyde]

Jesus told his followers how to avoid the appearance of hypocrisy - by praying behind closed doors. And your advice is avoid hypocrisy by praying right next to the hypocrites? How are we supposed to know the difference between hypocrites and sincere Christians when y'all are standing next to each other praying? We cant, you have your reward just like the hypocrites.

Are you actually trying to interpret that passage to mean that all prayer should be done in private?

Have you ever been to any Christian church service where there wasn't public prayer?

 

[Leonel]

I think there's a marked difference between two public prayer types. There's the one that's quiet over a small congregation. There's the other that's loud and the priest is yelling all sorts of stuff, televised over public tv.

 

[Narz]

I hate Obama. Not that I have anything against Obama's, one of my best friends is an Obama.

I loled.

xcl

 

[MobBoss]

They aren't all the same. You've yet to establish where this incident happened, you're assuming Jesus did this in violation of his prohibition on praying in the synagogues and streets, ie he "prayed" before a crowd of strangers.

I have established where it wasnt....i.e. in a room alone.

I dont even see that in the story, thats your invention. Funny thing is you're trying to create a contradiction in Jesus' teachings where one does not exist because you think praying in public is fine. So I'll have to ask again, how do the rest of us know if we are watching a hypocrite pray in public or a "sincere Christian"?

Are you saying its your place to judge a persons heart?

You didn't answer the question: did Jesus take his disciples to a synagogue for this prayer?

Did he do it alone in a room?

Hmm...dont ya mean giving thanks? You actually pray over food? For what?

Because it was done biblically.

No wonder its impossible to discuss this with you - things christian are so alien to you that you have no comprehension of such things at all.

Does Strongs ignore what Jesus said about praying behind closed doors too?

No, Strongs actually refers to the meaning of the word actually given in the scripture. Because there are more than just 1 translation of what we consider 'prayer' in the Greek and Hebrew. And as an fyi, the word in Matthew 19 for prayer is the exact same one.

"pray with the hypocrites, but do so sincerely"; or,

"do not pray as the hypocrites who stand in the synagogues and streets, but you close the door and pray"?

Did Jesus always 'close the door to pray'? No. Case closed. Your interpretation is simply flawed by Jesus own actions.

His baptism was in a river, not a synagogue or street.

Again, neither was he alone.

So he prayed with his disciples "outside", what does that mean - a synagogue or street?

It means he didnt always pray alone.

Where did Jesus explain these differences between prayer in seclusion and prayer in a synagogue?

When Jesus refers to the temple/synagogue as a 'house of prayer' what do you think he means?

There's no mention of praying, and no mention of praying in a synagogue or city street. Children were brought to him and Mobby assumes this was all done in that setting. The text doesn't even support that assumption...

I think its a fairly safe assumption. Why do you assume it wasnt? It doesnt say it was in a room, alone does it? No, it does not. But my assumption grants that it was quite unlikely that he was going to pray for these children alone in a room. I think thats a safe one to make. You, however, are free to believe whatever in the heck you want. But I would suggest in the future that you actually study what the words mean in Greek before making your own assumptions. It helps.

Are you actually trying to interpret that passage to mean that all prayer should be done in private?

Have you ever been to any Christian church service where there wasn't public prayer?

From his comments I dont think he has ever been to a church service at all.

 

[JollyRoger]

Did Jesus always 'close the door to pray'? No. Case closed.

Case closed indeed. He was a hypocrite that couldn't even follow his own teachings.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, he's probably haggard from all the messiahing

El_Mac, I suggest that both are a form of prayer, again, for example, when I 'bless' my food prior to a meal, I am indeed praying over it. The 4336 is simply a stronger version - praying 'in earnest' and at length....which btw, is the root word for the prayer used in Matthew 19.

Good idea using the Strong's number. That makes it easy to figure out what you mean.
To be clear, despite your bolding and the repeated attempts to explain it to you, Matthew 19 does not say that Jesus did any praying. The only reference to prayer in the target text is the motivation as to why the children were brought to him. It does not say that he 4336'ed them.

 

[Dachs]

If you don't set about donning the Purple and resurrecting the Romani Empire quick smart I'm going to be one angry ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra reactionary

I already did, didn't you notice?

 

[MobBoss]

Good idea using the Strong's number. That makes it easy to figure out what you mean.
To be clear, despite your bolding and the repeated attempts to explain it to you, Matthew 19 does not say that Jesus did any praying. The only reference to prayer in the target text is the motivation as to why the children were brought to him. It does not say that he 4336'ed them.

It does however establish his intent to "put his hands on them and pray". If you really have to be so litteral as to not see this as intending to pray over the children, then I dont know what to say, but to me, it indicates that he was going to lay hands on those children and in turn pray for them and bless them. And indeed the 'pray' used in that sentence is indeed the 4336 version of prayer.

And I have more than adequately shown that Jesus repeated prayed when he was not alone several times. No, he himself wasnt a hypocrite - its just that your literal interpretation about preaching like hypocrite is flawed.

 

[El_Machinae]

It does not say whose intent it was to pray for them. I've now typed that three times; Berzerker, twice.

 

[JollyRoger]

If you really have to be so litteral as to not see this as intending to pray over the children, then I dont know what to say,

Perhaps God needs a better editor so that the literal reading of the verse does not leave it an open question of whether he prayed. It would be nice to know for sure that he didn't violate his teachings in front of the children.

 

[Masada]

I already did, didn't you notice?

Turkey isn't in flames.... Constantinople hasn't been retaken

 

[Dachs]

Turkey isn't in flames.... Constantinople hasn't been retaken

You and I clearly have different ideas about how to go about this.

 

[Berzerker]

Are you actually trying to interpret that passage to mean that all prayer should be done in private?

Have you ever been to any Christian church service where there wasn't public prayer?

I'm not sure I'd call that public prayer, standing in the synagogues and streets is how Jesus identified the hypocrites so it sounds like an audience of non-participants is required. But yes, Jesus said pray in secret and the Father will reward you in secret. Pray in public and you have your reward from men. How do you interpret that any other way?

 

[MobBoss]

It does not say whose intent it was to pray for them. I've now typed that three times; Berzerker, twice.

As I said, in how I read the sentence, its obvious to me that its implied. And fwiw, thats how its been given to me by a number of pastors and churches. You, being a non-christian, probably have motives simply just to argue for arguing sake. /shrug. Its also funny that you who complain so much about biblical literalists, decide to be so literal in this particular case.

Again, I have pointed out repeatedly how Jesus prayed with others, not in seculsion, not a lone in a room. Dont want to acknowledge that? /whatever.

 

[JollyRoger]

Again, I have pointed out repeatedly how Jesus prayed with others, not in seculsion, not a lone in a room. Dont want to acknowledge that? /whatever.

I acknowledge his imperfection on the issue.

 

[Berzerker]

I have established where it wasnt....i.e. in a room alone.

Can we agree Jesus knew rooms weren't always available or are you gonna insist on making him both a hypocrite and a moron? Jesus was describing proper prayer (seclusion, room) and improper prayer (in public, synagogues and streets). That doesn't negate what he said about praying in the streets. Now you need to identify where Jesus allegedly prayed over these children. You have accused Jesus of an act he advised against based on your assumption he prayed standing in a synagogue or street. I dont see that in the story, if anything they're out in the boondocks. When yer done with that, you can tackle this problem of the author forgetting to mention anything about Jesus praying. Thats assuming of course you can prove this was prayer Jesus warned against... gl

Are you saying its your place to judge a persons heart?

You didn't answer my question, if Jesus says Christians should pray in the streets alongside the hypocrites, how are we to tell the difference? Jesus said we would reward the hypocrites but the sincere will be rewarded by the Father, right? Your argument puts us in the position of judging the hearts of those who pray in the streets because according to you, some are hypocrites and some are not. Who shall we reward?

Did he do it alone in a room?

You didn't answer my question again. Doesn't have to be alone, or in a room. He advised on what proper prayer consisted of and behind closed doors is the proper way, assuming a room is available. If a room is available and you can go behind closed doors to pray, does Jesus want you to walk out into the street instead and pray in front of everyone? He was their teacher, did he take them to a populated street or synagogue to pray? You are using what he did to justify praying in the streets but you dont care if he actually prayed in the streets.

Because it was done biblically.

No wonder its impossible to discuss this with you - things christian are so alien to you that you have no comprehension of such things at all.

Huh? You pray over food rather than give thanks because "it was done biblically"? Hey, I didn't invent Thanksgiving.

No, Strongs actually refers to the meaning of the word actually given in the scripture. Because there are more than just 1 translation of what we consider 'prayer' in the Greek and Hebrew. And as an fyi, the word in Matthew 19 for prayer is the exact same one.

Does Strong's ignore what Jesus said about praying behind closed doors too? Matt 19 doesn't say Jesus prayed. It says he laid hands on the children and left. And it doesn't tell us where this happened, or if there was an audience of non-participants ie a populated street or synagogue. You're assuming all that...

Did Jesus always 'close the door to pray'? No. Case closed. Your interpretation is simply flawed by Jesus own actions.

Well, actions speak louder than words. I guess Jesus was a hypocrite. Oh, but did he pray in the synagogues and streets? You didn't answer my question, why do you keep dodging questions if you are right?

Again, neither was he alone.

Jesus didn't mention praying with other people or baptism in that passage, he advised against praying in the synagogues and streets.

It means he didnt always pray alone.

I never said he did, this isn't about Jesus praying outside a room. If you want Jesus to support your position that praying along side the hypocrites in the synagogues and streets is acceptable, even desired, you need to show where he did it.

When Jesus refers to the temple/synagogue as a 'house of prayer' what do you think he means?

Well I'm tired of repeating questions for you to ignore. If you want me to comment on other verses give the citations. Jesus was not a fan of the religious establishment so I'd say he was criticizing the Temple structure for losing its original purpose. Or he meant the Temple was a house of prayer because people prayed there and thats what people called it.

I think its a fairly safe assumption. Why do you assume it wasnt?

Because the text says Jesus crossed the Jordan with a crowd following him. This incident occurs before any synagogue or city/town is mentioned.

It doesnt say it was in a room, alone does it? No, it does not. But my assumption grants that it was quite unlikely that he was going to pray for these children alone in a room. I think thats a safe one to make. You, however, are free to believe whatever in the heck you want. But I would suggest in the future that you actually study what the words mean in Greek before making your own assumptions. It helps.

So you have assumed Jesus prayed for these children even though the text doesn't say that, and you have assumed this all happened in a synagogue or street even though the text doesn't say that, but I need more study?

From his comments I dont think he has ever been to a church service at all.

Well, you thought wrong again. But fortunately people dont need a church service to read what Jesus said and did.

 

[Masada]

You and I clearly have different ideas about how to go about this.

I don't think your diplomatic enough to pull an Augustus

 

[Berzerker]

As I said, in how I read the sentence, its obvious to me that its implied. And fwiw, thats how its been given to me by a number of pastors and churches. You, being a non-christian, probably have motives simply just to argue for arguing sake. /shrug. Its also funny that you who complain so much about biblical literalists, decide to be so literal in this particular case.

Again, I have pointed out repeatedly how Jesus prayed with others, not in seculsion, not a lone in a room. Dont want to acknowledge that? /whatever.

So now its implied? You made the same mistake over and over and over but now you know what is "implied"? Why yes, its so obvious.

You aren't pointing to Jesus to justify Christians praying with each other or in their churches, you are pointing to Jesus to justify praying in public. Thats crossing a line Jesus drew... Dont drag him across it, us non-Christians wont let you.

I guess this is what you're talking about

Jesus at the Temple
12Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13"It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,'[e] but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'[f]"

So he was angry with the Temple structure for corruption. Whats yer point Mobby? Sounds like another reason to avoid praying alongside the hypocrites Jesus mentioned.

 

[Dachs]

I don't think your diplomatic enough to pull an Augustus

What part of conspiracy don't you understand?

 

[MobBoss]

Can we agree Jesus knew rooms weren't always available or are you gonna insist on making him both a hypocrite and a moron?

I am not. I fully accept what he said in the proper context. You dont. Its only moronic if you dont look at it in the proper context.

Of course he knew rooms werent always available...that simply gives more weight to my arguement than it does yours in that praying alone in a room wasnt the point - not being a hypocrite was the point. I comprehend that. You dont. Simple.

Jesus was describing proper prayer (seclusion, room) and improper prayer (in public, synagogues and streets).

If you havent picked up on it yet, there is more than one greek word for prayer. What he was referring to was to not be hypocrital in simply praying to get personal attention. A point you dont seem to grasp.

That doesn't negate what he said about praying in the streets.

Thats only secondary into describing the behavior of the hypocrite.

Now you need to identify where Jesus allegedly prayed over these children.

I have several times now. Even bolded the word pray for you when you denied it was even in the scripture. Apparently you are unable to see it. /shrug.

You have accused Jesus of an act he advised against based on your assumption he prayed standing in a synagogue or street.

Let me be clear. Jesus wasnt a hypocrite. Again, you utterly miss the context of what he was trying to teach.

I dont see that in the story, if anything they're out in the boondocks. When yer done with that, you can tackle this problem of the author forgetting to mention anything about Jesus praying. Thats assuming of course you can prove this was prayer Jesus warned against... gl

The greek word used in the scripture with the children is the same exact greek word he used in his warning. Again, learn to use a concordance and get back to me.

You didn't answer my question, if Jesus says Christians should pray in the streets alongside the hypocrites

He didnt say this nor do I allege he did anywhere. I simply read the scripture...unlike you I dont try to change the context of it.

You didn't answer my question again. Doesn't have to be alone, or in a room. He advised on what proper prayer consisted of and behind closed doors is the proper way, assuming a room is available.

He didnt mention anything about assuming a room was available did he? No.

You are using what he did to justify praying in the streets but you dont care if he actually prayed in the streets.

He certainly didnt always pray alone. The scripture supports that. If I take Jesus as my example....

Huh? You pray over food rather than give thanks because "it was done biblically"? Hey, I didn't invent Thanksgiving.

Giving thanks IS prayer. /wow. I didnt know you were that ignorant over this stuff.

Does Strong's ignore what Jesus said about praying behind closed doors too?

If you knew what Strongs even was, you would know the answer to this. You dont, thus your question speaks volumes about your knowledge of such things.

Matt 19 doesn't say Jesus prayed. It says he laid hands on the children and pray and left.

Corrected that for you to reflect what the scripture actually says. Is the word 'pray' actually that hard for you to include?

Well, actions speak louder than words. I guess Jesus was a hypocrite.

Nope. You just dont grasp what he is teaching is all.

Oh, but did he pray in the synagogues and streets? You didn't answer my question, why do you keep dodging questions if you are right?

Not dodging the questions. I have answered them several times now. Accurately.

I never said he did, this isn't about Jesus praying outside a room. If you want Jesus to support your position that praying along side the hypocrites in the synagogues and streets is acceptable, even desired, you need to show where he did it.

Well, this has dragged on long enough for you to start saying things I never said. I never said praying along side hypocrites was ok. I said that the point of his teaching was to not be a hypocrite, AND to point out that there are most certainly different forms (and words) for prayer in the Greek. A fact you seem determined to ignore.

Or he meant the Temple was a house of prayer because people prayed there and thats what people called it.

As for HIS house.....

Try harder. You might get it yet someday.

So you have assumed Jesus prayed for these children even though the text doesn't say that,

I think the text supports his intent to do so, yes. By the way, laying hands on and blessing IS indeed prayer. Another fact you dont seem to grasp.

and you have assumed this all happened in a synagogue or street even though the text doesn't say that, but I need more study?

Jesus spent most of his time in the streets, with crowds of people following him everywhere he went. I dont think its an outrageous assumption at all.

Well, you thought wrong again. But fortunately people dont need a church service to read what Jesus said and did.

They sure dont need it in order to misinterpret scripture.