Core Area Reform

[Leoreth]

Do you think all other cores work? I'm actually thinking about reducing the Moorish one.

 

[Hippo8085]

Work as in not as broken as the ones that have been worked on? Yes. Work ideally? No. List of ones that could maybe use a change:

- Babylon: reduce to square around the city, maybe even just the city itself and the Baghdad tile for less human abuse.

- Greece: Another column west, no exceptions. Rebirth should be only the bottom 4 rows. (don't know if already the case)

- Rome: Maybe could use another column east (city placement)? Will later get flipped by Byzantium.

- Vikings: Could go 1 row further south and 1 less east (south for Copenhagen's culture). Also I think they might need the Nidaros tile on their war map...

- Moors: Covers Qurtubah and Marrakus, shifts to covering Oran, Algers, and Tunis at rebirth (Hafsids). I think Spain might not have Marrakus on its war map (remember it used to be a mountain).

- Portugal: Either remove Ponta Delgada or map changes: horse on island (ranching is big industry, cows don't give enough production), one more whale somewhere around or a clam or crab to balance food (even number, odd number of food is annoying).

- Turkey: Shift the entire thing 1S, remove easternmost column, add one more west on the reborn (culture on the corn)

- Netherlands: Extend three more rows north

- America: bizarre, but somewhat necessary. I almost think it could extend into the Ohio Valley (2W, no exceptions in Michigan) but not include the South (Southern two rows). This would increase stability, but not give stability benefit from a part of the country that has always been a little more... independent.

 

[FinalLegendZero]

(remember it used to be a mountain).

Speaking of which, this has been brought up before, but the Marrakus square is considered Foreign territory for several civs it should be Historical for due to this reason. Typically this was buried under more important issues that were present at the time, but since we're on the topic of revising territory, perhaps it's time to take a look at it?

I do have a list of civs for it to be changed for, in case you do decide to fix this now:

-Arabia
-Phoenicia
-France
-Rome
-Spain

For each of these civs, the squares surrounding Marrakus are Historical, but Marrakus is not.

There's a similar situation for a single square for the Aztecs and Maya, but said square is a crappy city location that prevents building a city on the nearby Stone if settled, so that can probably be safely ignored.

 

[Leoreth]

Yep, will be set to historical for these civs.

 

[Hippo8085]

There's a similar situation for a single square for the Aztecs and Maya, but said square is a crappy city location that prevents building a city on the nearby Stone if settled, so that can probably be safely ignored.

Here are a couple other spots where this is present along with the mentioned one, which is 3S1E of Mexico City, should be historical for Maya, Aztec, Mexico, Spain.

I'm not sure if it was fixed on Belgrad.
2W and 1S1W of Mexico City should be historical for Aztecs, Mexico, and Spain.
I'm not sure if it was fixed for the southern island that represents the canaries.

Since I am feeling more productive and helpful today, here are coordinates for the other changes:

Babylon - Primary - TL: (75, 39) BR: (77, 41)

Greece - Primary - TL: (64, 39) BR: (70, 45) - Secondary - TL: (65, 39) BR: (69, 42) Condition: reborn

Rome - On second thought, most of their UHV is historical area

Vikings - Primary - TL: (58, 55) BR: (63, 61)

Moors - Primary - TL: (51, 37) BR: (53, 42) - Secondary - TL: (53, 37) BR: (58, 44) Condition: reborn, Alt. condition: same as Spain expanding

Turkey - Primary - TL: (69, 42) BR: (76, 46) - Secondary - TL: (67, 42) BR: (76, 46) Ex: (67, 42)

America - Primary - TL: (23, 45) BR: (32, 50) Ex: (23, 50), (24, 50), (27, 50), (28, 50), (29, 50), (30, 50), (27, 49)

 

[citis]

Babylon:
Why so small core? Two tiles of core, isn't this cruel? UHV doesn't give options anyway, no need to limit them more.

Greece: Do you include Salonica and Crete?
Moors: I hope you exclude Andalusia.

Giving some maps to see the changes would help.

 

[DC123456789]

Babylonia's core would be a 3 by 3 square under his suggestions. What kind of abuse does it suffer, anyway?

 

[Hippo8085]

Capital location. I decided 2-tiles would be a little too constrained but the new one doesn't give any advantage over the old other than that fitting 2 cities in it is a lot worse, which is the important part. All of these except Moors and America are very minor changes for culture or cities.

 

[Hippo8085]

Full formal detailed proposal with maps and reasons.

Babylonia
Primary Core - TL: (75, 39) BR: (77, 41)

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Reduces their core to the smallest area I find acceptable, and considering the name of the civilization I think it is appropriate to give them Babylon and the adjacent tiles.

Greece
Primary Core - TL: (64, 39) BR: (70, 45)
Secondary Core - TL: (65, 39) BR: (69, 42) Condition: Is Reborn

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Their UHV is a major expansion one, and this allows 3 decent cities with their capital, unlike before with two and a half. Secondary limits the rebirth's ability to expand and does not include anything except for Greece proper.

Vikings
Primary Core - TL: (58, 55) BR: (63, 61)

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Gives cultural dominance over southern tile of Denmark.

Moors
Primary Core - TL: (51, 37) BR: (53, 42)
Secondary Core - TL: (53, 37) BR: (58, 44) Condition: Spain has reached Renaissance and Moors are not in Iberia

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Primary covers what they start out as, secondary covers what they are meant to become. Cordoba and Marrakesh can grow reasonably large, including anything else makes the UHV a walk in the park stability-wise. After losing Cordoba, the secondary prolongs their life without dying because they lose Marrakesh, which should make them into more of a Barbary Pirates civilization as is desired. Taking Cordoba and Marrakesh out of their core later on should make Spain's life in the Southern part easier in terms of culture.
I wonder if it would be better to make Spain's requirement (and with it this one) researched Astronomy rather than Renaissance, just because the latter sometimes will not happen for them until late 1500s, at which time they already need the stability to support colonies.

Turkey
Primary Core - TL: (69, 42) BR: (76, 46)
Secondary Core - TL: (67, 42) BR: (76, 47) Ex: (67, 42) Condition: Constantinople has been captured

Spoiler :

Reasoning: It has always seemed kind of odd to have Crimea be part of their core and southern Turkey not, so this solves that. Secondary core allows easier cultural control of the surroundings for Constantinople than previously, namely the corn and tobacco that spawn.

America
Primary Core - TL: (23, 45) BR: (32, 50) Ex: (23, 50), (24, 50), (27, 50), (28, 50), (29, 50), (30, 50), (27, 49)

Spoiler :

Reasoning: This one looks a bit odd, but there are both historical and game-play arguments for it.
Historical: This is the territory that the United States has controlled for all of its history.
Game-play: First of all, increases stability - Ohio Valley carries more population than a southern city, population that is needed to take over all of North America and the Middle East for the UHV goals. Second, it is more guaranteed to have a city than the current southern part. The southern coastal city varies between being settled on the southern-most land tile of the current core and 1S, which is in Florida and therefore not appropriate for the core.

 

[fabe]

Vikings
Primary Core - TL: (58, 55) BR: (63, 61)

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Gives cultural dominance over southern tile of Denmark.

Which has been German/under German rule for the last 1100 years...
That brings me to another issue: why does the Prussian/FedRepGer core not include the tiles 1E of the Rhine river (the marble, iron and stone tiles)? I for one can't think of a region "more German" than those 3 tiles that are not regarded as core and represent for example the Ruhr district, Cologne and the region where Leoreth (usually) lives (and also my humble self).

On the America core: I don't think it looks odd, in fact I like it very much!

 

[Hippo8085]

Which has been German/under German rule for the last 1100 years...

I would put the border at about the half mark on that tile. If I am not mistaken, this would make it core for both, so this makes it a 50-50 tile instead of an 80-20 in favor of a German civilization.

That brings me to another issue: why does the Prussian/FedRepGer core not include the tiles 1E of the Rhine river (the marble, iron and stone tiles)?

This should be part of the modern era reduced core. In my proposed core, I was trying to make more of a Prussia core, though since the core is to be dynamic the more German core ought to have this region in it.

 

[DC123456789]

Shouldn't the Greek secondary core at the very least include 2 tiles further north (minus the Anatolia tiles) to actually include all of Greece proper? It would really only give them one more city that isn't even always settled.

Personally, I think that Babylonia probably deserves at least Sumer as part of their core as well; it's not like one more bad city is really going to help them much, anyway.

 

[fabe]

This should be part of the modern era reduced core. In my proposed core, I was trying to make more of a Prussia core, though since the core is to be dynamic the more German core ought to have this region in it.

That sounds interesting, shifting the core a little to the West, loosing Eastern Prussia and gaining the Rhine region

 

[Leoreth]

Which has been German/under German rule for the last 1100 years...
That brings me to another issue: why does the Prussian/FedRepGer core not include the tiles 1E of the Rhine river (the marble, iron and stone tiles)? I for one can't think of a region "more German" than those 3 tiles that are not regarded as core and represent for example the Ruhr district, Cologne and the region where Leoreth (usually) lives (and also my humble self).

Arguments whether they are Prussian or not notwithstanding, I agree that it would be wrong to give French culture an equal fighting chance over these tiles, which is why I have kept them in the German core. They usually don't have a city anyway so it is mostly about cultural control.

On the America core: I don't think it looks odd, in fact I like it very much!

I agree.

 

[Royal Tenenbaum]

I'd say expand the American core one tile west, though.

 

[Hippo8085]

Why? It loses a ton of historical significance if one does that, plus 1W does not include any important cities in terms of game-play. If I were to make any change to my proposal, it would be to eliminate the two tiles west of the Mississippi.

If you are worried about the AI, the American settler map needs significant alteration anyways.

 

[citis]

Full formal detailed proposal with maps and reasons.

Babylonia
Primary Core - TL: (75, 39) BR: (77, 41)

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Reduces their core to the smallest area I find acceptable, and considering the name of the civilization I think it is appropriate to give them Babylon and the adjacent tiles.

Greece
Primary Core - TL: (64, 39) BR: (70, 45)
Secondary Core - TL: (65, 39) BR: (69, 42) Condition: Is Reborn

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Their UHV is a major expansion one, and this allows 3 decent cities with their capital, unlike before with two and a half. Secondary limits the rebirth's ability to expand and does not include anything except for Greece proper.

Vikings
Primary Core - TL: (58, 55) BR: (63, 61)

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Gives cultural dominance over southern tile of Denmark.

Moors
Primary Core - TL: (51, 37) BR: (53, 42)
Secondary Core - TL: (53, 37) BR: (58, 44) Condition: Spain has reached Renaissance and Moors are not in Iberia

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Primary covers what they start out as, secondary covers what they are meant to become. Cordoba and Marrakesh can grow reasonably large, including anything else makes the UHV a walk in the park stability-wise. After losing Cordoba, the secondary prolongs their life without dying because they lose Marrakesh, which should make them into more of a Barbary Pirates civilization as is desired. Taking Cordoba and Marrakesh out of their core later on should make Spain's life in the Southern part easier in terms of culture.
I wonder if it would be better to make Spain's requirement (and with it this one) researched Astronomy rather than Renaissance, just because the latter sometimes will not happen for them until late 1500s, at which time they already need the stability to support colonies.

Turkey
Primary Core - TL: (69, 42) BR: (76, 46)
Secondary Core - TL: (67, 42) BR: (76, 47) Ex: (67, 42) Condition: Constantinople has been captured

Spoiler :

Reasoning: It has always seemed kind of odd to have Crimea be part of their core and southern Turkey not, so this solves that. Secondary core allows easier cultural control of the surroundings for Constantinople than previously, namely the corn and tobacco that spawn.

America
Primary Core - TL: (23, 45) BR: (32, 50) Ex: (23, 50), (24, 50), (27, 50), (28, 50), (29, 50), (30, 50), (27, 49)

Spoiler :

Reasoning: This one looks a bit odd, but there are both historical and game-play arguments for it.
Historical: This is the territory that the United States has controlled for all of its history.
Game-play: First of all, increases stability - Ohio Valley carries more population than a southern city, population that is needed to take over all of North America and the Middle East for the UHV goals. Second, it is more guaranteed to have a city than the current southern part. The southern coastal city varies between being settled on the southern-most land tile of the current core and 1S, which is in Florida and therefore not appropriate for the core.

Thanx for the maps. I agree at some points, I disagree at some others:

Babylon: What if player wants to play a non UHV game? He is forced to found two cities that will flip to other civs and wait until industrial era to get some vital room. The current core is ok, and to be honest I would expand it to include Assur (the wheet and the surrounding tiles). Mesopotamians represent all mesopotamian civs Assyrians, Akkhadians, Babylonians and Sumerians, and all these names are coded in the dynamic names. Player should be able to play as any mesopotamian civ wants and should be able to build a Mesopotamian empire in middle east.

Greece I agree with primary core (maybe include Cyprus?). Secondary core: This isn't Greece proper, you exclude Salonica. Include the two rows above (exceptions: minor Asian two tiles).

Moors: I agree with the primary core. The secondary core isn't moors proper, this is Agliers proper. Include Marrakus and exclude Tunis instead.

Turkey: I agree with the primary core. The secondary core: Cities keep control of first ring, and Constantinopolis will have a lot of culture anyway. Exclude the western coloumn.

America: I agree about excluding the South. I don't know which coloumn should be the most western. I would be a little bit more conservative and set the western limit one coloumn eastern than your proposal.

Russia: Old and told, but I repeat . Sankt-Peterburg should be given to Russian core. If you want to exclude a city then exclude Kiev, it is a better option.

 

[ales_]

The Russian core can be dynamic.

 

[VGL]

Full formal detailed proposal with maps and reasons.

Babylonia
Primary Core - TL: (75, 39) BR: (77, 41)

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Reduces their core to the smallest area I find acceptable, and considering the name of the civilization I think it is appropriate to give them Babylon and the adjacent tiles.

Greece
Primary Core - TL: (64, 39) BR: (70, 45)
Secondary Core - TL: (65, 39) BR: (69, 42) Condition: Is Reborn

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Their UHV is a major expansion one, and this allows 3 decent cities with their capital, unlike before with two and a half. Secondary limits the rebirth's ability to expand and does not include anything except for Greece proper.

Vikings
Primary Core - TL: (58, 55) BR: (63, 61)

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Gives cultural dominance over southern tile of Denmark.

Moors
Primary Core - TL: (51, 37) BR: (53, 42)
Secondary Core - TL: (53, 37) BR: (58, 44) Condition: Spain has reached Renaissance and Moors are not in Iberia

Spoiler :

Reasoning: Primary covers what they start out as, secondary covers what they are meant to become. Cordoba and Marrakesh can grow reasonably large, including anything else makes the UHV a walk in the park stability-wise. After losing Cordoba, the secondary prolongs their life without dying because they lose Marrakesh, which should make them into more of a Barbary Pirates civilization as is desired. Taking Cordoba and Marrakesh out of their core later on should make Spain's life in the Southern part easier in terms of culture.
I wonder if it would be better to make Spain's requirement (and with it this one) researched Astronomy rather than Renaissance, just because the latter sometimes will not happen for them until late 1500s, at which time they already need the stability to support colonies.

Turkey
Primary Core - TL: (69, 42) BR: (76, 46)
Secondary Core - TL: (67, 42) BR: (76, 47) Ex: (67, 42) Condition: Constantinople has been captured

Spoiler :

Reasoning: It has always seemed kind of odd to have Crimea be part of their core and southern Turkey not, so this solves that. Secondary core allows easier cultural control of the surroundings for Constantinople than previously, namely the corn and tobacco that spawn.

America
Primary Core - TL: (23, 45) BR: (32, 50) Ex: (23, 50), (24, 50), (27, 50), (28, 50), (29, 50), (30, 50), (27, 49)

Spoiler :

Reasoning: This one looks a bit odd, but there are both historical and game-play arguments for it.
Historical: This is the territory that the United States has controlled for all of its history.
Game-play: First of all, increases stability - Ohio Valley carries more population than a southern city, population that is needed to take over all of North America and the Middle East for the UHV goals. Second, it is more guaranteed to have a city than the current southern part. The southern coastal city varies between being settled on the southern-most land tile of the current core and 1S, which is in Florida and therefore not appropriate for the core.

Babylonian:there should be a Secondary Core.condition:reached modern age.Or,if leoreth makes a re-spawn, in 1900.
Greece:remove core from turkey.
Moors:good.just add the north African part of prime core and it will be good
turkey:great
America:just add 3 tittles of south too and it will be good

 

[Sitalkas]

Greece I agree with primary core (maybe include Cyprus?). Secondary core: This isn't Greece proper, you exclude Salonica. Include the two rows above (exceptions: minor Asian two tiles).

I think they put it this way on respawn cause Thessaloniki got liberated well after the independence war

Greece:remove core from turkey.