Corona Virus: Who's fault and how can we hold it accountable?

If you want to hold China accountable, you'd have to hold many other countries accountable too.

What we're seeing is IMO just the basic human urge to find somebody to blame, to point a finger, because it's hard to hate something you can't even see, something that just happens to kill people without an actual conscious intent to do so.

Who says I don't want to hold other countries accountable for their own missteps? But if you are the originator of a global crisis, then your failures are more costly than others'.

If you don't do something about China, this will simply happen again. I mean, look:

92251504_10157043828221179_1457502258613714944_n.jpg


Was the WHO too beholden to China to take the problem more seriously early on?
 
They are still ideological communists and have not abandoned Marxism-Leninism and Maoism. They just make slight changes in tactics from time to time.

How can you call yourself an ideological communist and not have any communism going on in your society? Change in tactics? I mean a change in tactics would be to try and make some goods to bring in foreign capital, not create a whole private property ran industry that looks little different from any other capitalistic nation on earth. That's a change in fundamentals.
 
Who says I don't want to hold other countries accountable for their own missteps? But if you are the originator of a global crisis, then your failures are more costly than others'.

If you don't do something about China, this will simply happen again. I mean, look:

92251504_10157043828221179_1457502258613714944_n.jpg


Was the WHO too beholden to China to take the problem more seriously early on?

I mean China and WHO is going to get the blame largely on this, the real question is what do you propose we do about that failures?
 
And a fair answer from you too I appreciate that, but still there are things in your answer that seems not entirely truth in the case of "warning the world regarding the calamity" and "how fast is their reaction", I'll elaborate what I mean.



Please check the time-line here that was provided by @Kaitzilla , You'll understand that their reaction is far from what to be considered fast,

For those who doesn't want to click the link, I provided the time-line in the spoiler:

Spoiler Time-line :
Some point in late 2019: The coronavirus jumps from some animal species to a human being. The best guess at this point is that it happened at a Chinese “wet market.”

the symptom onset date of the first patient identified was “Dec 1, 2019 . . . 5 days after illness onset, his wife, a 53-year-old woman who had no known history of exposure to the market, also presented with pneumonia and was hospitalized in the isolation ward.” In other words, as early as the second week of December, Wuhan doctors were finding cases that indicated the virus was spreading from one human to another.

December 21: Wuhan doctors begin to notice a “cluster of pneumonia cases with an unknown cause.

December 25: Chinese medical staff in two hospitals in Wuhan are suspected of contracting viral pneumonia and are quarantined. This is additional strong evidence of human-to-human transmission.

Sometime in “Late December”: Wuhan hospitals notice “an exponential increase” in the number of cases that cannot be linked back to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market, according to the New England Journal of Medicine.

sent a message to a group of other doctors warning them about a possible outbreak of an illness that resembled severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), urging them to take protective measures against infection.

The investigation so far has not found any obvious human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infection.” This is the opposite of the belief of the doctors working on patients in Wuhan, and two doctors were already suspected of contracting the virus.

Three weeks after doctors first started noticing the cases, China contacts the World Health Organization.

Tao Lina, a public-health expert and former official with Shanghai’s center for disease control and prevention, tells the South China Morning Post, “I think we are [now] quite capable of killing it in the beginning phase, given China’s disease control system, emergency handling capacity and clinical medicine support.”

January 1: The Wuhan Public Security Bureau issued summons to Dr. Li Wenliang, accusing him of “spreading rumors.” Two days later, at a police station, Dr. Li signed a statement acknowledging his “misdemeanor” and promising not to commit further “unlawful acts.” Seven other people are arrested on similar charges and their fate is unknown.

after several batches of genome sequence results had been returned to hospitals and submitted to health authorities, an employee of one genomics company received a phone call from an official at the Hubei Provincial Health Commission, ordering the company to stop testing samples from Wuhan related to the new disease and destroy all existing samples.”

According to a New York Times study of cellphone data from China, 175,000 people leave Wuhan that day. According to global travel data research firm OAG, 21 countries have direct flights to Wuhan. In the first quarter of 2019 for comparison, 13,267 air passengers traveled from Wuhan, China, to destinations in the United States, or about 4,422 per month. The U.S. government would not bar foreign nationals who had traveled to China from entering the country for another month.

January 2: One study of patients in Wuhan can only connect 27 of 41 infected patients to exposure to the Huanan seafood market — indicating human-to-human transmission away from the market. A report written later that month concludes, “evidence so far indicates human transmission for 2019-nCoV. We are concerned that 2019-nCoV could have acquired the ability for efficient human transmission.”

The Chinese government would not announce that breakthrough for another week.

January 3: The Chinese government continued efforts to suppress all information about the virus: “China’s National Health Commission, the nation’s top health authority, ordered institutions not to publish any information related to the unknown disease, and ordered labs to transfer any samples they had to designated testing institutions, or to destroy them.”

Roughly one month after the first cases in Wuhan, the United States government is notified. Robert Redfield, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, gets initial reports about a new coronavirus from Chinese colleagues, according to Health and Human Services secretary Alex Azar. Azar, who helped manage the response at HHS to earlier SARS and anthrax outbreaks, told his chief of staff to make sure the National Security Council was informed.

Also on this day, the Wuhan Municipal Health Commission released another statement, repeating, “As of now, preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.

the city should implement the strictest possible monitoring system for a mystery new viral pneumonia that has infected dozens of people on the mainland, as it is highly possible that the illness is spreading from human to human.”

January 5: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission put out a statement with updated numbers of cases but repeated, “preliminary investigations have shown no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission and no medical staff infections.

January 6: The New York Times publishes its first report about the virus, declaring that “59 people in the central city of Wuhan have been sickened by a pneumonia-like illness.” That first report included these comments:

Wang Linfa, an expert on emerging infectious diseases at the Duke-NUS Medical School in Singapore, said he was frustrated that scientists in China were not allowed to speak to him about the outbreak. Dr. Wang said, however, that he thought the virus was likely not spreading from humans to humans because health workers had not contracted the disease. “We should not go into panic mode,” he said.

Don’t get too mad at Wang Linfa; he was making that assessment based upon the inaccurate information Chinese government was telling the world.

Also that day, the CDC “issued a level 1 travel watch — the lowest of its three levels — for China’s outbreak. It said the cause and the transmission mode aren’t yet known, and it advised travelers to Wuhan to avoid living or dead animals, animal markets, and contact with sick people.”

Also that day, the CDC offered to send a team to China to assist with the investigation. The Chinese government declined, but a WHO team that included two Americans would visit February 16.

January 8: Chinese medical authorities claim to have identified the virus. Those authorities claim and Western media continue to repeat, “there is no evidence that the new virus is readily spread by humans, which would make it particularly dangerous, and it has not been tied to any deaths.”

The official statement from the World Health Organization declares, “Preliminary identification of a novel virus in a short period of time is a notable achievement and demonstrates China’s increased capacity to manage new outbreaks . . . WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travelers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available.”

January 10: After unknowingly treating a patient with the Wuhan coronavirus, Dr. Li Wenliang started coughing and developed a fever. He was hospitalized on January 12. In the following days, Li’s condition deteriorated so badly that he was admitted to the intensive care unit and given oxygen support.

The New York Times quotes the Wuhan City Health Commission’s declaration that “there is no evidence the virus can spread among humans.” Chinese doctors continued to find transmission among family members, contradicting the official statements from the city health commission.

All 739 close contacts, including 419 medical staff, have undergone medical observation and no related cases have been found . . . No new cases have been detected since January 3, 2020. At present, no medical staff infections have been found, and no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found.” They issue a Q&A sheet later that day reemphasizing that “most of the unexplained viral pneumonia cases in Wuhan this time have a history of exposure to the South China seafood market. No clear evidence of human-to-human transmission has been found.”

Also on this day, political leaders in Hubei province, which includes Wuhan, began their regional meeting. The coronavirus was not mentioned over four days of meetings.

January 13: Authorities in Thailand detected the virus in a 61-year-old Chinese woman who was visiting from Wuhan, the first case outside of China. “Thailand’s Ministry of Public Health, said the woman had not visited the Wuhan seafood market, and had come down with a fever on Jan. 5. However, the doctor said, the woman had visited a different, smaller market in Wuhan, in which live and freshly slaughtered animals were also sold.”

January 14: Wuhan city health authorities release another statement declaring, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.” Wuhan doctors have known this was false since early December, from the first victim and his wife, who did not visit the market.

The World Health Organization echoes China’s assessment: “Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in Wuhan, China.

This is five or six weeks after the first evidence of human-to-human transmission in Wuhan.

January 15: Japan reported its first case of coronavirus. Japan’s Health Ministry said the patient had not visited any seafood markets in China, adding that “it is possible that the patient had close contact with an unknown patient with lung inflammation while in China.”

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission begins to change its statements, now declaring, “Existing survey results show that clear human-to-human evidence has not been found, and the possibility of limited human-to-human transmission cannot be ruled out, but the risk of continued human-to-human transmission is low.” Recall Wuhan hospitals concluded human-to-human transmission was occurring three weeks earlier. A statement the next day backtracks on the possibility of human transmission, saying only, “Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.

January 17: The CDC and the Department of Homeland Security’s Customs and Border Protection announce that travelers from Wuhan to the United States will undergo entry screening for symptoms associated with 2019-nCoV at three U.S. airports that receive most of the travelers from Wuhan, China: San Francisco, New York (JFK), and Los Angeles airports.

The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission’s daily update declares, “A total of 763 close contacts have been tracked, 665 medical observations have been lifted, and 98 people are still receiving medical observations. Among the close contacts, no related cases were found.”

January 18: HHS Secretary Azar has his first discussion about the virus with President Trump. Unnamed “senior administration officials” told the Washington Post that “the president interjected to ask about vaping and when flavored vaping products would be back on the market.

Despite the fact that Wuhan doctors know the virus is contagious, city authorities allow 40,000 families to gather and share home-cooked food in a Lunar New Year banquet.

January 19: The Chinese National Health Commission declares the virus “still preventable and controllable.” The World Health Organization updates its statement, declaring, “Not enough is known to draw definitive conclusions about how it is transmitted, the clinical features of the disease, the extent to which it has spread, or its source, which remains unknown.”

January 20: The Wuhan Municipal Health Commission declares for the last time in its daily bulletin, “no related cases were found among the close contacts.

That day, the head of China’s national health commission team investigating the outbreak, confirmed that two cases of infection in China’s Guangdong province had been caused by human-to-human transmission and medical staff had been infected.

Also on this date, the Wuhan Evening News newspaper, the largest newspaper in the city, mentions the virus on the front page for the first time since January 5.

CDC announced the first U.S. case of a the coronavirus in a Snohomish County, Wash., resident who returning from China six days earlier.

By this point, millions of people have left Wuhan, carrying the virus all around China and into other countries.

January 22: WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus continued to praise China’s handling of the outbreak. “I was very impressed by the detail and depth of China’s presentation. I also appreciate the cooperation of China’s Minister of Health, who I have spoken with directly during the last few days and weeks. His leadership and the intervention of President Xi and Premier Li have been invaluable, and all the measures they have taken to respond to the outbreak.”

In the preceding days, a WHO delegation conducted a field visit to Wuhan. They concluded, “deployment of the new test kit nationally suggests that human-to-human transmission is taking place in Wuhan.” The delegation reports, “their counterparts agreed close attention should be paid to hand and respiratory hygiene, food safety and avoiding mass gatherings where possible.”

At a meeting of the WHO Emergency Committee, panel members express “divergent views on whether this event constitutes a “Public Health Emergency of International Concern’ or not. At that time, the advice was that the event did not constitute a PHEIC.”

President Trump, in an interview with CNBC at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, declared, “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.

January 23: Chinese authorities announce their first steps for a quarantine of Wuhan. By this point, millions have already visited the city and left it during the Lunar New Year celebrations. Singapore and Vietnam report their first cases, and by now an unknown but significant number of Chinese citizens have traveled abroad as asymptomatic, oblivious carriers.

January 24: Vietnam reports person-to-person transmission, and Japan, South Korea, and the U.S report their second cases. The second case is in Chicago. Within two days, new cases are reported in Los Angeles, Orange County, and Arizona. The virus is in now in several locations in the United States, and the odds of preventing an outbreak are dwindling to zero.

On February 1, Dr. Li Wenliang tested positive for coronavirus. He died from it six days later.


You'll understand from the time-line, contrary from your believe it's actually a late respond from their initial denial and stubbornness. And what they did in 25 January is not a trumpet of warning for the international community it's their (finally) sane reaction for their national survival.. They pretty much closing their eyes for all the worker that they gives permission to travel all over the world including here in Indonesia.



Again I already answer this at your previous comment.



Yes that's irresponsible and greedy. That's disgusting. But that doesn't negate all the manipulation and data faking that Chinese did that result the Pandemic in this level, what they did pretty much bring everyone down with them intentionally or not.

Where in your timeline does it become obvious that they weren't just dealing with a pneumonia outbreak, and actually were dealing with a novel disease? Obviously an increase in hospital cases is not enough of a signal. There is going to be some early confusion about whether there is an influenza outbreak or a new disease. It takes time to put the pieces together, doesn't it?

Even at my most aggressive, I can't see how they could have known anything much more than a week earlier than they did. It takes backtracking to realize that various cases of pneumonia are related to each other.
 
I think that, to @aelf in Singapore at least, the idea was that the government there was inclined to take the danger more seriously (as, say, Taiwan did) but didn't do so for fear to chinese retaliation. They were more conscious of the dangers of these epidemics there, due to past recent experiences.
Even here I saw my country's government trying to keep borders open, and schools and universities operating as people themselves closed them down and demanded the borders be closed. Because "european coordination" and "WHO recommendations"...
Switzerland of course at least couldn't have its government use the "european coordination" excuse.

Granted, the situation may be a bit different in Asia, but we here in the west really have no business blaming the Chinese .

As far as "european coordination" goes that may not be applicable in Switzerland (though we still didn't act faster - so much for the benefits of not being bound by the EU). Of course Switzerland not being in the EU didn't stop our local isolationists from blaming the EU - they're basically the swiss counterpart for Obama.

Who says I don't want to hold other countries accountable for their own missteps? But if you are the originator of a global crisis, then your failures are more costly than others'.
Putting the burden on the "originator" would really be a dangerous precedent, just because they happened to be the first to be infected. Are we going to do that for every disease from now on? Or what about other bad things starting from some country? Like an economic crisis, for example?
 
Where in your timeline does it become obvious that they weren't just dealing with a pneumonia outbreak, and actually were dealing with a novel disease? Obviously an increase in hospital cases is not enough of a signal. There is going to be some early confusion about whether there is an influenza outbreak or a new disease. It takes time to put the pieces together, doesn't it?

Even at my most aggressive, I can't see how they could have known anything much more than a week earlier than they did. It takes backtracking to realize that various cases of pneumonia are related to each other.

El, Doctor Weilang already warned the public in December that the Sars like virus are spreading and some concrete action should be taken before it wide-spread, and what the Chinese government react to that? Suppressed him, Wuhan municipality warned him and give him discipline letter for spreading "false information" and pretty much silenced him-and WHO pretty much get along with that, ironically he died with the same virus that he tried to warn, what a sacrifice, how can we turn blind to such degree of corruption? It's beyond me.

Please El, I would like you to enter the discussion not with the intention to defend your initial stance or seeking another way to excuse the Chinese government and divert the attention to somewhere else and think we are much wiser if we look at our own government-it's not, every responsible party should be hold responsible, be that east west north or freaking south.
 
xenforo has killed my subscription to this thread and all ı will say is that the Americans should have taken the Arnie offer to change places with Trump , him to the White House and Trump to some TV shows , because however bad Schwarzenegger might have been as a failed politician , he would do better 'cause the world would have been far more ready to believe in his incompetence . With Trump you can only see billions he will be making with this .
 
I'm honestly not defending. I have zero loyalty to China. And was posting warnings about their long-term threats well before Trump came on the scene. I'm trying to get a feel for your position, that's all. I can only ask questions that you respond to

Using Weilang's letter as a time point to judge other responses is a pretty good idea. If you give them another week for bureaucracy slowness, everything after early January looks like obfuscation.

Your original question that I answered was "when did China actually start warning, but other leaders acted dismissive?". I think Jan 25 would be a good date to hold as a time point for that question
 
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There are also a lot of countries whose outbreaks did not even primarily come from China, especially those outside East Asia.

The US, for instance, allowing its (predominantly European-sourced, apparently) outbreak to get so out of hand is directly implicated in the epidemic burdens on a bunch of other countries. As are governments being a fair bit slower to close travel from the US vs closing travel from China.
 
I tried cooking ice cream. It didn't turn out well. :cry:

Never made deep fried ice cream?

I mean China and WHO is going to get the blame largely on this, the real question is what do you propose we do about that failures?

China should be more diplomatically isolated. Economically, we should not be too dependent on Chinese money, exports and labour.

Putting the burden on the "originator" would really be a dangerous precedent, just because they happened to be the first to be infected. Are we going to do that for every disease from now on? Or what about other bad things starting from some country? Like an economic crisis, for example?

"happened to be the first to be infected" is really underselling it, considering what actually happened, as explained.
 
Previously I also answer your question regarding when is the "right" time for China to realized that this is a novel disease as opposed to influenza out-break? I answered that Dr. Weilang already warn about that since December instead of heeding his warning China shut him down and sent him a disciplinary letter for being a bad boy spreading a false rumor that can cause international "turmoil", China want international "chill" instead.

Your original question that I answered was "when did China actually start warning, but other leaders acted dismissive?". I think Jan 25 would be a good date to hold as a time point for that question

That is the time when they finally admit that it is not a good idea for everybody to go outside celebrating the Chinese new year, it's not an international warning, not-at-all, we still get traffic coming from China after 25 January. Aelf made a good elaborate answer in relation to that also.
 
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Who says I don't want to hold other countries accountable for their own missteps? But if you are the originator of a global crisis, then your failures are more costly than others'.

If you don't do something about China, this will simply happen again. I mean, look:

92251504_10157043828221179_1457502258613714944_n.jpg


Was the W.H.O. too beholden to China to take the problem more seriously early on?
China is a black hole for information.

They kept our C.D.C. out of their country for all of January. :mad:
Without any information, early decisions are impossible.
C.D.C. tried a back channel on Jan. 24th to get virus samples, but the communists shut that down too.

Instead, we got lies of no human-to-human transmission for weeks on end.
It is easy to say there was no evidence when all the investigators with proof were in jail signing confessions.

The virus genome was published on Jan. 11th by a Chinese lab.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...ome-virus-implicated-wuhan-pneumonia-outbreak
It was shut down by the communists on Jan. 12th, hampering all their research efforts. :mad:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soc...first-shared-coronavirus-genome-world-ordered


Here is a call for accountability from the USA Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e-legally-liable-pandemic-damage-it-has-done/
Active disinformation and obstruction indeed!
Legally liable ya.

That woman taking medicine to hide symptoms to get on a plane was arrested for putting everyone at risk.
Why not China?


Here is a video from Epoch Times which hates the Chinese Communist Party a lot.
So, uh, it might be a bit biased. :undecide:

People keep saying all the action we've taken was weeks too late, yet the CCP wasted those precious weeks and people just shrug their shoulders.
 
There are also a lot of countries whose outbreaks did not even primarily come from China, especially those outside East Asia.

The US, for instance, allowing its (predominantly European-sourced, apparently) outbreak to get so out of hand is directly implicated in the epidemic burdens on a bunch of other countries. As are governments being a fair bit slower to close travel from the US vs closing travel from China.

Trump made first noise on protecting the US from Europe with blocking air flights (at first except the UK etc)
Later it became the Chinese virus

The first case in the US was likely from China (January 15)
Then West coast typical China, East coast typical Europe
That's what you get with global flights with every country in the world.

Here an article:
So far, most cases on the U.S. West Coast are linked to a strain first identified in Washington state. It may have come from a man who had been in Wuhan, China, the virus’ epicenter, and returned home on Jan. 15. It is only three mutations away from the original Wuhan strain, according to work done early in the outbreak by Trevor Bedford, a computational biologist at Fred Hutch, a medical research center in Seattle.
On the East Coast there are several strains, including the one from Washington and others that appear to have made their way from China to Europe and then to New York and beyond, Chiu said.
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/...rack-coronavirus-strains-mutation/5080571002/


The RNA mutation tree showing similar
https://nextstrain.org/narratives/ncov/sit-rep/2020-04-10
 
China is a black hole for information.

They kept our C.D.C. out of their country for all of January. :mad:
Without any information, early decisions are impossible.
C.D.C. tried a back channel on Jan. 24th to get virus samples, but the communists shut that down too.

Instead, we got lies of no human-to-human transmission for weeks on end.
It is easy to say there was no evidence when all the investigators with proof were in jail signing confessions.

The virus genome was published on Jan. 11th by a Chinese lab.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...ome-virus-implicated-wuhan-pneumonia-outbreak
It was shut down by the communists on Jan. 12th, hampering all their research efforts. :mad:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soc...first-shared-coronavirus-genome-world-ordered


Here is a call for accountability from the USA Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...e-legally-liable-pandemic-damage-it-has-done/
Active disinformation and obstruction indeed!
Legally liable ya.

That woman taking medicine to hide symptoms to get on a plane was arrested for putting everyone at risk.
Why not China?


Here is a video from Epoch Times which hates the Chinese Communist Party a lot.
So, uh, it might be a bit biased. :undecide:

People keep saying all the action we've taken was weeks too late, yet the CCP wasted those precious weeks and people just shrug their shoulders.

I'm pretty sure epoch times should never ever be used as a source of reliable information especially pertaining to anything not reactionary conservative in nature. Seriously.

China holds a lot of water here, the question is what to do about it beyond cloudy comments about diplomatic consequences and economic repercussions. Specificity matters here.
 
The first case in the US was likely from China (January 15)

I understand that the Chinese only detected the virus because the
number of deaths rose to a particular level that triggered investigation.

I suspect that by that time, it was already present in the USA and in Italy,
but with the illness and occasional deaths mis-attributed to other viruses.
 
That is the time when they finally admit that it is not a good idea for everybody to go outside celebrating the Chinese new year, it's not an international warning, not-at-all, we still get traffic coming from China after 25 January. Aelf made a good elaborate answer in relation to that also.

We might be talking about two different things. As of January 25th, don't you think that all national leaders should have been aware of the threat to their Nations?
 
I understand that the Chinese only detected the virus because the
number of deaths rose to a particular level that triggered investigation.

I suspect that by that time, it was already present in the USA and in Italy,
but with the illness and occasional deaths mis-attributed to other viruses.

yes
I guess the same

Considering the enormous amount of passenger movements per air every day and the importance of Wuhan for a number of high tech sectors
 
Was the WHO too beholden to China to take the problem more seriously early on?

Cool timeline, but doesn't support this theory. The declared a global health emergency on January 30th. Where in your timeline is there any indication that they had information that would have inclined them to declare it any sooner? In hindsight it turns out that the first time China had a case of what could have been pneumonia they should have just shot every person who had been in contact with that person, and every person that they had been in contact with in turn, but no one wants to see anyone make a habit of that kind of response. It looks like by the time anyone could confirm a contagion it had already escaped China anyway, but January 30th might very well be the soonest that a GHE could have been justified.
 
We might be talking about two different things. As of January 25th, don't you think that all national leaders should have been aware of the threat to their Nations?

No one of the western leaders volunteered to be the first who could be accused of being panicked
wait... lay low.. and mumble someting
 
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