Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

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So I fooled around with Babylon right now. If you move the settler left one and down towards Jerusalem, 1 square away on your first turn Jerusalem doesn't get founded. If you found a city on the spot (Samaria?) then the next turn you get a free Temple of Solomon! :D
 
Two python exception:

1) In 1200 AD
Code:
Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "CvEventInterface", line 23, in onEvent

  File "CvRFCEventManager", line 111, in handleEvent

  File "CvRFCEventManager", line 122, in _handleDefaultEvent

  File "CvRFCEventHandler", line 521, in onBeginPlayerTurn

  File "Victory", line 899, in checkPlayerTurn

UnboundLocalError: local variable 'bestCity' referenced before assignment
ERR: Python function onEvent failed, module CvEventInterface

2) When meeting the new world civs (and I only got one musketman :()
Code:
Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "CvEventInterface", line 23, in onEvent

  File "CvRFCEventManager", line 111, in handleEvent

  File "CvRFCEventManager", line 122, in _handleDefaultEvent

  File "CvRFCEventHandler", line 616, in onFirstContact

  File "RiseAndFall", line 2543, in onFirstContact

TypeError: makeUnitAI() takes exactly 6 arguments (5 given)
ERR: Python function onEvent failed, module CvEventInterface
And a third one sometimes when a GP is born:
Code:
Traceback (most recent call last):

  File "CvEventInterface", line 23, in onEvent

  File "CvRFCEventManager", line 111, in handleEvent

  File "CvRFCEventManager", line 122, in _handleDefaultEvent

  File "CvRFCEventHandler", line 599, in onGreatPersonBorn

ArgumentError: Python argument types in
    CyUnit.setName(CyUnit, NoneType)
did not match C++ signature:
    setName(class CyUnit {lvalue}, class std::basic_string<unsigned short,struct std::char_traits<unsigned short>,class std::allocator<unsigned short> >)
ERR: Python function onEvent failed, module CvEventInterface
 
But wasn't the continent barrier created by Rhye to stop civs like Egypt to settle Arabia, or for France placing a random city in Russia ? (That one still happened to me once, though...)
It could have its downsides. On the other side, overlapping the European and Asian (middle-east ?) continents over Egypt, Levant and Anatolia could solve the problem.
 
To be honest it would seem simpler to just scrap continents altogether and make wonders apply worldwide if that's the only reason for them.
 
Yes but I suppose leoreth would prefer not to interfere with the current wonders like Notre Dame which are working quite well right now. It might be better to keep the continents, but stop their intreference in the AI war plans.
 
Please, no Brazil! How do you imagine Portugal without Brazil? Something like the Netherlands without colonies and 60 turns to economy, I think... (I saw it in the new file on te SVN). Maybe some post-Spanish or French colonies, but no Portuguese or Dutch!
 
Indeed, Argentina would probably make more sense. There's usually enough cities in the area to make it viable.
 
IIRC Leoreth will make Brazil's spawn conditional - I imagine something along the lines of a collapsed or unstable Portugal within a certain date range, so that rather than the new world Portuguese colonies dissolving into independents, Brazil spawns.

What I think would be interesting though, as a requisite for Brazil's spawn:
Lisboa/Portugal's capital must be conquered by a foreign power. IIRC IRL Napoleon invaded Portugal and the Portuguese king fled to Brazil, shortly (some years) after, Brazil declared independence. That way it would be more or less historical for Brazil to spawn as Portugal was weak at the time (having been invaded and all). It would not be unpractical (I have seen Portugal conquered by Spain, Germany or France in quite a few games) and more importantly, would not pre-doom a human Portuguese player as your brazilian colonies declaration of independence would not be a mere thing of low stability, you'd have to lose your freaking capital, which more than justifies it.
 
Why not this: After Portugal collapses any date after 1822 (or so), they re-spawn as Brazil. It's not like a Europe-only Portugal would be involved heavily in world affairs...
 
AOS 9001 has a very good point, post-colonial Portugal would pretty much be (in the game) irrelevant in terms of massive world affairs. Brazil is definitely way more important nowadays (huge country, huge agricultural production, large population, emerging economy).
Yeah, we could have a mechanic similar to Rome-Italy except that a collapsed Portugal will respawn in Brazil, as Brazil - they should spawn with a reasonable defensive army and a few settlers. They should also flip all independent/french/dutch cities that lie within what is now modern day Brazil (which would spare French Guyana and Suriname) in order to represent de-colonization better.

Definitely all post-colonial civs should spawn with a reasonable defensive army and an appropriate number of settlers.

I think the best way we can represent the Spanish post-colonial nations (without over complicating things) would be via conditional respawns of the Amerindian civs (ala Rome-Italy), with slightly modified settler maps and different names. With the exception of Argentina, which was not occupied by any amerindian civ within the game.

For the spanish colonies, - the Aztecs should definitely have Mexico as a succesor state (ala Rome-Italy) with inherited settler maps and all. I think its more or less historical as their maps more or less overlap - with Mexico as the "core area" and Central America not as part of the core area, but within historical bounds (at one point in history Mexico was briefly united with the Central American countries - that was before the fall of the Mexican empire). However, I think Mexico should also have california and texas "within historical bounds", it will be interesting - as well as historical for the USA to have some early conflict with Mexico.

In a similar fashion, and to keep things not so complicated, the succesor state to the Mayas should be "Central America" (although the region is not really unified they were early in their history and is still attempting to integrate more due to their common past.) Besides, we can't simply have one civ - mexico controlling all former Spanish posessions north of south america, it would be too much a buffer for the US in the south, Central America would serve as a buffer to mexico and would make diplomacy in the region more realistic - that way mexico wouldn't focus solely on trying to have control over southern US, three-way diplomacy will be better. Central America should use the same settler/stability maps as maya, with some slight modifications - it's core area should be from Yax Mutal all the way south to, but excluding Panama. Panama, the rest of the Yucatan Peninsula and the island to the right of Cuba (Hispaniola) should be "within historical borders".

So we would basically split in two the successor states of Spain north of South America, taking advantage of the already existing models of Maya and Aztec with only a few modifications.

However, for South America, the only previous model we have is that of the Incas, who controlled parts of what nowadays is modern Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia and Chile. Maybe we could have an Incan respawn and call them "Andean Community of nations" to represent the real life trading bloc of the same name, we would extend the core area to include the 4 aforementioned nations plus Colombia and Venezuela. That way we would without too much effort represent six nations in one, using that trading bloc as the basis. Then we would just need to throw Argentina in (with a conditional spawn - but not requiring Spain to collapse, their core area should be Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay should be "within historical bounds") and that would be it for Spanish south America, we would have effectively split it in two, and together with Brazil it would be split into 3 large nations, making diplomacy way more interesting.

What I am not sure of is what mechanism will determine Spanish succesor states - A Spanish collapse? - most definitely. But that does not seem to be enough as Spain is usually amongst the most powerful civs in RFC. Maybe low stability/collapse and/or foreign conquest. Besides, unlike Portugal, Spain is still at least somewhat important in world affairs, more so than any of their former colonies so the mechanics of their colonies should definitely be different from Portugal's.

Sorry for the long post, hopefully my ideas will be useful.
 
I don't think wonders should have continent based effects, especially considering how few people are actually aware of when continents change boundaries and where those resulting continent boundaries are. Wonders such as Notre Dame, should instead just apply for something like maybe....
- cities within 15 tiles of the capital or
- the oldest 8 cities of your empire by date you most recently acquired that city
This definitely makes which cities experience continental effects a lot less arbitrary.




Regarding successor states and independence of colonies, IMHO I think the less civ spawns and city/unit flips, the better. I think you should be allowed to play through a civ and as their successor civ if you manage to survive.

Example civs:

Persian Empire--- representing the Achaemenids, Parthians and Sassnids

Capital: Parsa => Ctesiphon (same tile as Baghdad, moderate likelihood)

Leaders: Cyrus, Xerxes, Anushiravan

Unique Unit(s): Immortal, Persian Cataphract (slightly cheaper and weaker than knights available with earlier technology and without levy)

Unique Power(s): Power of Satrapy, and either Power of Parthian Tactics: Chariots and Horse Archers get free Flanking I promotion, or Power of Silk Route Trade: get +2 gold per turn for every luxury resource imported or exported

Unique History Victories:
- Persians in general need better UHVs. What these could be would depend on how Leoreth reworks the combat system. In general, there would be 2 generic moderately difficult Persian UHVs, and 1 difficult UHV representing the Achaemenid empire, and 1 difficult UHV representing the Sassanid empire. Only need to complete 3 to win.
- an idea for the difficult Sassanid UHV: Control 8 civilization spawn spots in 610AD (historically was Persia itself, Babylon, Phoenicia, Egypt, Arabia and Turkey; historically unattained but might be possible in game could include Byzantine, India, Greece, Rome and Ethiopia).


Empire of Portugal and Brazil --- representing Kingdom of Portugal, United Kingdom of Portugal Brazil and Algarves, Empire of Brazil, FR Brazil

Capital: Lisbon => Rio de Janeiro (low likelihood in 1750; but high likelihood in 1815) => Brasilia (medium likelihood in 1950)

Leaders: Afonso Henriques, Joao II, Pedro II

Unique Unit(s): Carrack seems sufficient

Unique Power: Power of Exploration seems good to keep, either Power of Deforestation: clearing jungles produce +50 hammers after Electricity, or Power of Agricultural Industry: Whereas other civs get a +2 gold bonus for Sugar and Spices and +1 hammer for corn between the years 1450-1700, Portugal/Brazil gets that bonus from 1450 until end of the game.

UHVs:
-Again, 2 moderately difficult generic Portuguese/Brazil UHVs, 1 very difficult Portuguese UHV (maybe have at least 1 more city than any other Western European state in South America, at least more cities than any other Western European state in each of the following groups of regions 1) South America, 2) Africa, 3) Asia) and 1 very difficult Brazilian UHV. Only need to complete 3 to win.





Regarding Rigo's ideas. A lot of them are interesting. I definitely can see Aztecs(Mexicala peoples) and Mexico could be one civ linked by dynamics names. If Aztecs get conquered, I think it makes sense for them to respawn if owner civ stability is low as Mexico. Otherwise, if the Aztecs survive, I think they should just make a peaceful dynamic name and leaderhead transition into Mexico.
Although having a Central America civ works well with the way the Maya are currently set up, I think a civ like Gran Colombia would have much better playability value since they would represent a larger geographical area that might even encompass a good portion of Central America. (as in the case with Panama for a while belonging to Colombia).
 
when I made suggestions in regards to Spanish successor states, I did so with convenience, rather than playability value in mind (hence, taking advantage of pre-existing set-ups by only modifying them slightly). Under the assumption that Leoreth will: "add post-colonial civs as unplayable conditional spawns without UU, UB, UP and UHV.".

I am not saying they should stay unplayable, but I think it might be a good idea to examine their behavior in games first, before going to lengths to make playable civs that will have unknown behavior. This could help us figure out what would work best in terms of what nations/group of nations to include.

After taking a better look at the map of South America, maybe grouping 6 nations into an Inca respawn might be too much. The ideal solution would be to have Chile, Argentina (who would also control the area corresponding to Paraguay and Uruguay), Peru (as an Inca respawn), and Gran Colombia. But I dunno if having 4 civs (5 with Brazil) would be too much in south america. My original idea of only 2 post-Spanish civs could serve as a testing ground of sorts.

Also, on Argentina - maybe Leoreth should add the falkland islands to "within historical bounds", we might get a small dispute with England there - i.e. the falklands war all over again just for the flavor of it.
 
If we want Rome to conquer more we could drop the Legionary build cost. We could also have Imperial Roads as a road upgrade build-able by Rome and Inca (they had impressive roads too), Imperial Roads would be build-able by Quecha Warrior and Legionary

I whole heartedly think we should have Brazil (Portugal) in, they are the Regional power, also I think we should have Mexico (Aztecs), Gran Columbia (Maya) and Argentina-Chile-Peru (Inca)
 
Conditional spawn, you say... Then I agree too, but it should happen only if Portugal loses continental possesions. Seeing Kingdom of Portugal with Lisbon which isn't their captal is quite strange, because it was only a few years period.
 
Haha, w000t LEoreTH!!!@!@#WA@#$#@!!!!!!!! =D =D =D (in case you didn't catch up to how much we like your mod)

I hope not too many civs will emerge in South America from these discussions. New civs are completely pointless if they all end up having nearly no impact in world affairs. The maximum messiness in the Americas I would be able to tolerate would be an Americas with
-the United States
-Aztecs=>Mexico
-Portgual=>Brazil
-England (owning the land in Canada)
-Gran Colombia
-United Republic of South America/Argentina

I'm not sure how willing I am for Mayans and Incans to survive or to have a successor state as one of the aforementioned civs. Most of the Mayan homelands could be split up nicely between Mexico and Gran Colombia. Though it would be nice to have some sort of Incan/Peru civ in modern times, I fear that there might just be too many civs in SA with their inclusion. Instead, their lands could maybe be divided amongst Gran Colombia and the United Republic.


Although I would be very excited if these civs were to be implemented, there are a few downsides to this. Most notably, it would be too historical and Spain will no longer be a superpower. Having Spain's New World empire all declare independence would make Spain sad to play for human players (kind of like how playing Rome sometimes feels). But if these changes are done right, we'll get a lot more great powers that would make the game really interesting (Mexican-American War? Argentine-Brazil War? USA helping these civs fight for independence against Europeans?? what about making one of these civs sympathetic towards Russia and communism?!? so many possibilities :P).



Conditional spawn, you say... Then I agree too, but it should happen only if Portugal loses continental possesions. Seeing Kingdom of Portugal with Lisbon which isn't their captal is quite strange, because it was only a few years period.
Yeah, this might seem a tad bit weird. But I'd like the see the relationship between Portugal and Brazil be something like the relationship between Pheonicia and Carthage right now. Dynamic name changes and leaderhead changes will allow us to get to play Portugal when it was a great power, and then move on to playing as Brazil when Portugal no longer was a great power.
 
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