Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[MontcalmXVI]

Maybe giving Forts a culture tile under them and having the French presence in Ohio that way?

A lot could be taken in that direction. Stability with forts? Maintenance cost? Maybe only the tile its built on gets culture?

 

[Caesar Augustus]

While the idea of using Forts this way is interesting, it's probably more of a challenge than it's worth. I mean, you're talking about designing a whole new game feature that works unlike anything else in the game, then teaching the AI how to use it appropriately. All to represent a few tiny forts and trapping communities in the wilderness over a relatively short period of time. Plus it would be ridiculously exploitable.

I'll say it again, the vast majority of French Louisiana is best represented by totally empty land. Now, if the French or anyone else want to colonize that area I'm all for it, it's rich land and they'll be well-rewarded for it. I just don't think it should be encouraged.

 

[J. pride]

While the idea of using Forts this way is interesting, it's probably more of a challenge than it's worth. I mean, you're talking about designing a whole new game feature that works unlike anything else in the game, then teaching the AI how to use it appropriately. All to represent a few tiny forts and trapping communities in the wilderness over a relatively short period of time. Plus it would be ridiculously exploitable.

I'll say it again, the vast majority of French Louisiana is best represented by totally empty land. Now, if the French or anyone else want to colonize that area I'm all for it, it's rich land and they'll be well-rewarded for it. I just don't think it should be encouraged.

Why cant we just encourge them to have Saint Louis on the Mississippi or Detroit up north. Problem solved;

 

[Caesar Augustus]

While I suppose having cities like that is better than Fort Michilimackinack and other such nonsense, the issue that I have is that cities in that area are likely to be populous and productive, but France by and large got little more than a few furs out of the area. While the territory was claimed by France, it was never really settled. Having some of the resources spawn later (after the American spawn) would do something to alleviate this problem, but I think an unsettled wilderness is best represented by empty land. If that makes it easier for America to expand west, so be it; I'd rather see America have an easier time using its initial settlers than just sit on the east coast and vassalize to whoever asks first anyway.

 

[Leoreth]

To be honest I don't really understand what the discussion is about; I've never seen France settle anything else than New Orleans and maybe Detroit.

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

•Also, I think you should hurry up with the prosecutor units
-- Like I said, your modmod is amazing to begin with, and I can't thank you enough. I'm just throwing out ideas.
-Montcalm XVI

While I echo Montcalm's compliments for the mod, I'd like to quibble with his English before it get written into XML.

prosecutor => inquisitor or persecutor, please

(And I know it's easy to make mistakes in a foreign language)

 

[Leoreth]

Merriam-Webster doesn't know persecutor as a proper word, but knows prosecutor

The problem with inquisitor is that it's too Christianity centered. But I don't know if the religions besides Christianity and Islam should even have prosecutor units.

 

[Tigranes]

Dawn of Civilization
A modmod for Rhye's and Fall of Civilization

this modmod is not a kitchen sink modmod. I always carefully consider if a change adds something to the game and doesn't destroy other aspects of it. This is why I won't add anything just for the sake of adding it; it has to fit with the overall ambition and philosophy of RFC.

Dear Leoreth,
Please don't take this personal, but I think adding Prussia and especially Thai/Siam contradict your opening statement, which I applaud wholeheartedly Less is more -- if you would be able to describe history with less additions we won't need to spend weeks of rebalancing everything, new civs won't slow down the mod and original philosophy of RFC would be preserved.

This is a global mod and focus must be global. Civilizations should not be just national and VERY specific, they should capture major elements of developments on planet Earth.

Why can't we combine Khmer and Thai under the roof of the same green colored civilization to represent developments in Indochina? After certain date simply move capital 2 tiles south, rename, provide new LH and you done! Simple is genius. Same goes for Germany/HRE/Austria/Prussia. Austria and Germany were allies in WW1, sure Prussia and Austria fought with each other but on the global scale they essentially represent German element in continental Europe (the other two being Slav and Roman).

Look, if you are insisting on squeezing Thais in Indochina -- than you have to be consistent and do the same thing for Kingdom of Ghana/Mali/Songhai Empire <-- this one had risen to stretch from Cameroon to the Maghreb, the largest state in African history. I mean the list can go on and on.

On the other hand inclusion of Indonesia captures global spirit quite well

And finally some global aspects remain untouched. Seljuks were a nice addition, but they are not playable and that is sad. I really miss some Steppe Empire, fore Mongols would come. Steppe Empires in Asia were many and though short lived they represent the major element in global developement. If you want to add something add Gokturks who can later respawn as Seljuks and make that civ playable.

And finally, if you wonna add a new civ in crwoded Europe -- Poland/Lithuania would capture major rift between the eastern and Western Slavs and deserve to be on the map more than Prussia.

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

Merriam-Webster doesn't know persecutor as a proper word, but knows prosecutor

The problem with inquisitor is that it's too Christianity centered. But I don't know if the religions besides Christianity and Islam should even have prosecutor units.

It's listed in the online version.

And if you don't think Buddhists do persecution, talk to Tokugawa Ieyasu (then leave as politely and quickly as possible). I know less about Hinduism and Zoroastranianism, though Shapur II appears to have learned the wrong lessons from Constantine.

 

[Leoreth]

Why can't we combine Khmer and Thai under the roof of the same green colored civilization to represent developments in Indochina? After certain date simply move capital 2 tiles south, rename, provide new LH and you done! Simple is genius.

And what do we gain from this? Serious question. The current implementation allows all that, and more.

 

[Tigranes]

But I don't know if the religions besides Christianity and Islam should even have prosecutor units.

persecutor (plural persecutors)
A person or thing that persecutes or harasses.

There were many of those bad guys everywhere. Even among Buddhists:

Buddhist persecution of Muslims [in Myanmar] arose from religious reasons, and occurred during the reign of King Bayinnaung, 1550-1589 AD. After conquering Bago in 1559, the Buddhist King prohibited the practice of halal, specifically, killing food animals in the name of God. He was religiously intolerant, forcing some of his subjects to listen to Buddhist sermons possibly converting by force. He also disallowed the Eid al-Adha, religious sacrifice of cattle. Halal food was also forbidden by King Alaungpaya in the 18th century.

And you can add Yazdegerd II to the list of Zoroastrian persecutors:

According to Armenian tradition, attempts at demolishing churches and building fire-temples were made and a number of Zoroastrian magi were sent, with Persian military backing, to replace Armenian clergy and suppress Christianity.

There were also four large Buddhist Persecutions in China...

There was also famous Taoist "Pope" Kou Qianzhi:

Kou gained many adherents and, by making Taoism into a more orthodox doctrine, attracted the attention of Emperor Taiwu of Northern Wei. In 423 Kou had the title of tianshi conferred upon himself by Imperial decree, thereby establishing the &#8220;Taoist papacy&#8221;: the title was passed to the church's leader from generation to generation in an unbroken line. By conspiring with certain court officials, Kou's patron Cui Hao was able to have Buddhism, Taoism's chief competitor, proscribed from the realm and all its practitioners subjected to a bloody persecution. Taoism then became the official religion of the Northern Wei Dynasty.

And as of Hindus, I hope you know about modern anti-Christian violence in India.

Persecution is the issue of majority not tolerating minority. It can occur under any religion.

 

[Tigranes]

And what do we gain from this? Serious question. The current implementation allows all that, and more.

Well what are we gaining right now? Very boxed, jungle choked civ gets another civ flipping one of the very few cities they can possibly build and playing essentially the same global role Khmer would otherwise play themselves -- represent Indochina. If the Kmer survives -- what do we achieve from rivalry in this very small region? Indochina civs should be at least allowed to settle in Jungles, by the way...

How the Thais go inline with RFC philosophy? If you want to refine historical realism in Indochina -- just respawn or rename Khmer as Siam to represent independent state in Indochina during the colonial era. During the other times things looked more or less like this:

(AD 900).............................................................(AD 1400)

 

[civ_king]

It's listed in the online version.

And if you don't think Buddhists do persecution, talk to Tokugawa Ieyasu (then leave as politely and quickly as possible). I know less about Hinduism and Zoroastranianism, though Shapur II appears to have learned the wrong lessons from Constantine.

Hinduism is too syncretic to be inquisitorial

 

[Caesar Augustus]

Well what are we gaining right now?

I think we gain quite a bit. Having the Thais replace the Khmer in SE Asia allows for a more orderly transition between the religious, Asia-centric middle ages and the larger scope of the renaissance and beyond. Combining the two and expecting the result to thrive in the renaissance without being too strong previously would be a real hassle. Plus you'd have to find some weird hybrid of their current UPs, UBs, and especially UHVs which I think is unnecessary. IMO the Thai/Khmer relationship is similar to the Mughal/India one and while it may, in a sense, go against the prevailing "less is more" attitude of the mod, it does so for very good reasons.

As for Prussia/HRE, I feel like it depends on implementation. I would only think the HRE exists as a civ insofar as it represents more than just Germans, that is, including the Dutch and Italians. Then those two civs would break off, culminating in a conditional Prussia spawn depending on HRE stability. It would bear some resemblance to the Roman fall, though in a bit of a different order, with the Dutch and Italians playing the part of the Spanish, French, and English, while the Prussians are like the Byzantines. If the HRE is meant to stay within German-speaking lands, then it makes more sense to just move the capital and change the name.

 

[Leoreth]

Well what are we gaining right now? Very boxed, jungle choked civ gets another civ flipping one of the very few cities they can possibly build and playing essentially the same global role Khmer would otherwise play themselves -- represent Indochina. If the Kmer survives -- what do we achieve from rivalry in this very small region? Indochina civs should be at least allowed to settle in Jungles, by the way...

How the Thais go inline with RFC philosophy? If you want to refine historical realism in Indochina -- just respawn or rename Khmer as Siam to represent independent state in Indochina during the colonial era. During the other times things looked more or less like this:

I don't see what's the advantage of respawning and renaming Khmer compared to replacing them with Thailand, except that it will look a lot more patched together, and wastes the opportunity to give them all the unique assets there are. It's not as if they crowd the game either, because I specifically made sure that only one of both can exist at the same time.

 

[Tigranes]

Well, you always have the final word here , perhaps I will get used to them. But they can exist together, at least with Thai played by humans. I had some epic Elephant battles with Khmer enrenched in northertn Vientam.

While we are on this -- any particular reason to name c. 1200 AD Muslim civ in India -- Mughals and not Delhi Sultanat or something genereic -- Islam Empire of India? Delhi sultanate wasnoted for being one of the few states to repeatedly defeat the Mongol Empire and thereby saving India from plundering raids and attacks. Perhaps dynamic names, a LH and some Sultanate-relevant UHV could paint a better picture of Muslim India?

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, the Thai can spawn with Khmer being still alive, but as soon as one kills the other, no one will return while the other is alive.

To handle the dynamic name of "Muslim India" correctly I need to rewrite the dynamic name thingy to allow for more options. I definitely prefer Mughal Empire over Islamic Empire of India or something generically made-up.

 

[AbsintheRed]

While I echo Montcalm's compliments for the mod, I'd like to quibble with his English before it get written into XML.

prosecutor => inquisitor or persecutor, please

(And I know it's easy to make mistakes in a foreign language)

Really?
We use prosecutor in RFCE
I always thought both prosecutors and persecutors are correct

 

[Tigranes]

Prosecutors and persecutors are not the same, in fact they are opposites, they carry completely different meaning. You prosecute guilty to serve the justice and you persecute innocents for whatever reason and commit injustice. Now, from the point of view of religious persecutors they where prosecutors, defenders of true faith and that's how their civ would call them. But their victims would rightfully call them persecutors, so would the people of good will. It's up to modders to take sides in this linguistic issue

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

Really?
We use prosecutor in RFCE
I always thought both prosecutors and persecutors are correct

I complained here partly because of several months' irritation at seeing it used in the RFCE forums.