Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Leoreth]

Just started playing your modmod. Very good work, especially the fine-tuning! I enjoy the new flavour and accuracy very much.

Just one thing I noticed: Playing as Arabs you depend more on luck finishing the second UHV than before. The Jewish holy city being gone from Arab Jerusalem is one thing. It can be replaced by building the Zoroastrian shrine if you are able to conquer Persia. Islamic shrine in Mecca is usely no problem. Now the Christian holy city moves from Jerusalem pre-1300, effectively stealing my shrine option there. So I either have to conquer the new Christian holy city which can be anywhere. Or I have to conquer India and use the Buddhist and Hinduist holy cities.
This is quite tough.

EDIT: Just realised that though the holy city moved when the Apostolic Palace was built, my Christian shrine in Jerusalem stayed. Intended?

Thanks!

Well, as already said, it's the shrine that counts and that's intendedly not moved with the holy city. So if the Holy Sepulchre is already built you can take it (the 600 AD scenario is easier here cause you're guaranteed to find it in Jerusalem).

The moving of the holy city doesn't affect gameplay that much. It's just for historicity (center of Catholicism being in Rome, not Jerusalem) and flavor (so you can see in the civ list who is the civ most likely to become Pope) while still retaining the value of the original holy city (just like Jerusalem was still valuable to the Christians despite only a neglectable Christian minority living there).

 

[civ_king]

Thanks!

Well, as already said, it's the shrine that counts and that's intendedly not moved with the holy city. So if the Holy Sepulchre is already built you can take it (the 600 AD scenario is easier here cause you're guaranteed to find it in Jerusalem).

The moving of the holy city doesn't affect gameplay that much. It's just for historicity (center of Catholicism being in Rome, not Jerusalem) and flavor (so you can see in the civ list who is the civ most likely to become Pope) while still retaining the value of the original holy city (just like Jerusalem was still valuable to the Christians despite only a neglectable Christian minority living there).

Considering in real life Rome has been the holy city since before the end of the first century Why do we need Jerusalem to have the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. Catholicism has numerous holy places such as Lourdes, Fatima and others, how about random events giving minor holy sites?

 

[Leoreth]

Well I'm not Catholic so I've probably never really gotten the concept of holy sites, but I guess the Holy Sepulchre is way more important than the locations of minor wonders such as Lourdes or Fatima (although Lourdes would give a good explanation why the shrine creates money ).

This is especially true for the crusades era - the Church of the Holy Sepulchre also does serve as a more general landmark for "this is the holy land", which was enough for people fighting over it. And I guess the shrine is a good gameplay incentive to do the same.

Also it blends nicely with the Arabian UHV (I suppose Rhye meant controlling the shrines of the three Abrahamic religions, which they did).

 

[Ambassador]

Thanks for the replies. BTW, is there something like crusades in RFC Dawn? Could it be something similar to the conqueror's event later on? I like the way crusades were implemented in RFCE quite much. Maybe you could adapt the code...

 

[Sandmonster1989]

Just wanted to note that the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is a short distance from the Wailing Wall (Temple of Solomon) and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem... so its only logical to find it in the same place in the 600 ad start, it would be like the Great Lighthouse and Library being in the wrong cities...

 

[dcode147]

Hey Leoreth, were you able to look over my previous posts? floodplains change
making alps workable to make Northern Italian cities more viable


And I also would really like to see higher priority for a good crusades feature as well. It's hard balancing Middle Eastern civs (such as buffing of Arabs) without knowing how a Crusades feature would work.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't want to give the Alps any special treatment. Italian cities are not that bad, they're just not able to reach the importance they had in the Renaissance. But you can have, for example, Genoa and Venice as profitable cities without problems.

The floodplains change would heavily impact Babylonia's performance (and Mali's too), that I don't want to deal with all the balancing right now.

For the crusades I thought about giving a new ability to Great Prophets that somehow creates an army close to your holy city, which would make them more useful if you have no shrine. But there are other things I'd like to finish first.

 

[Ambassador]

For the crusades I thought about giving a new ability to Great Prophets that somehow creates an army close to your holy city, which would make them more useful if you have no shrine. But there are other things I'd like to finish first.

A brilliant idea! "Inspire nobles to go on a crusade" imediately spawns 4-5 units near the holy city of your state religion. This option is only possible if the HC is under occupation of a foreign religion.

But what to do with the now moved HC to where the Apostolic Palace is built (which is in a Christian state)? Maybe leave it in Jerusalem? Or could you just "Liberate city x with Christian population?" as a kind of mission? Or you could choose a destination city in a window similar to when you choose via the Congresses.

What I'd like to see, is your troops embarked into one or two galleys, so you can redirect them.

EDIT: Is this crusade option also viable for non-Christian civs? Maybe you could make it depend on Theology or Divine Right? (Theology might be better for it comes earlier)

Another thing, did you think about a intermedial unit between galley and galleon, as is used in LegendsofRevolution? Like a cog, a dhow, long-boat or junk? It seems strange to me, that galleys are used until the invention of galleons in mid16th c. Maybe have the midtype appear with compass tech? Make it slightly stronger (+50% against Triremes) and hold more cargo (3 instead of 2). That way you have an incentive to replaces your galleys.

 

[Leoreth]

Well, I haven't thought much about the details of such a crusade mechanic, because it really doesn't have much priority right now. Your suggestions are all very good, but I don't know if we should give the crusades so much credit by giving them a sophisticated mechanic. They are relevant only for a short period of the game.

On the ships: well, in the Mediterranean, galleys were the main vessels until the 16th century (think battle of Lepanto). But I'll see if I can reasonably fit in a Cog into the game.

 

[Ambassador]

They are relevant only for a short period of the game.

Well, at least for about 350 years. The first crusade was in 1095, one of the last in 1444 (Battle of Warna). Also, don't forget the Christians' crusades in the Baltic region. What troubles me more, is if they should be a Christian mechanic only. You could argue, that there were also Muslim holy wars in India and Africa/Spain (the Almohads, Almoravids and Al-Mansur himself).

On the ships: well, in the Mediterranean, galleys were the main vessels until the 16th century (think battle of Lepanto). But I'll see if I can reasonably fit in a Cog into the game.

For fighting, yes. For carriage cogs and sailers were used. They were less manoeuvrable in battle but could carry more freight. If you look at Middle Age depictions of seafaring and transportation of troops you always see sailers and cogs.

 

[Leoreth]

Okay, but it's disputable if those European crusades really are crusades in the traditional sense. The crusade of Varna seems more like a mutual alliance with religious pretext to me.

And the commonly known Middle Eastern crusades era is roughly 200 years (first crusade in 1095, fall of Acre in 1291), which only translates into 20 turns ingame.

 

[Ambassador]

Maybe we could have two strong independent cities spawning in Poland prior to Germany spawn? One in Warsaw, the other Northeast of the Carpates thus providing a barriere to Germany's easy expansion to the East. Else they reach the Krim easily before the Russians, which seems both unhistorical and bad gameplay to me: It is an unnecessary concession to achieving a German UHV.
So I'd suggest to plant two independent walled cities with lets say two strong defenders (Levy) in Reval and Lemberg (maybe one tile to the west?). So they couldnt be taken by either Russia or Germany before strong siege weapons like Trebuchets. That way, Germany has an incentive to push also West and South. What do you think?

EDIT: Maybe even one city in the Balkans (Belgrad or Sofia), but that might be too much

 

[Leoreth]

Then there's the question where Germany can expand peacefully at all. Spawn in Vienna, Frankfurt flips ... anything else can already get difficult with Warszawa's and Viking Denmark's cultural pressure on the borders.

If we had a bigger map, I'd gladly include it, but here ...

 

[AOS9001]

Well, soon enough there'll be Prussia spawning too, eating up all the HRE's northern areas. They'll need to focus on the east and south then. Austro-Hungary, perchance?

 

[Ambassador]

Another thing I noticed today: Upon Reformation Germany and England both became Protestant. Yet still the two of them are eligible for Pope. Is this okay?

 

[Leoreth]

Mechanic wise yes, because you don't need the AP's religion as your state religion to become Pope.

If that makes much sense is another question

 

[keli]

Yep, When I was Turkey, and had 1 (only one!) christian city, even I could vote in the AP, which is pretty ridiclous if you ask me...

 

[Leoreth]

But you didn't have many votes, right?

 

[keli]

Ofcourse not, but still, I tend to vote "abstain" cuz it just doesn't feel right.

 

[Ambassador]

Would it be possible to only let those civs vote and be voted for which have the AP religion as state religion?