Decision on Prop 8 pending

[Birdjaguar]

The reasons for marriage are not religious. Marriage is about spending the rest of your life (or a part of it) with someone you love, not celebrating the birth of your god. You can intertwine your religion in marriage, but that doesn't change that the reasons for marriage is not religious.

For most of history marriage was about in-laws and assets.

 

[LightFang]

By the way, if you haven't skimmed the decision yet, it's a freakin' judicial SMACKDOWN.

"[F]undamental rights may not be submitted to [a] vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections."

"A private moral view that same-sex couples are inferior to opposite-sex couples is not a proper basis for legislation."

"Proposition 8 fails to advance any rational basis in singling out gay men and lesbians for denial of a marriage license."

And here is a very good analysis of the entire affair:

http://prop8trialtracker.com/2010/08/04/analyzing-prop-8-a-few-large-points/

 

[civ_king]

Just because you beleive marriage should be a religious institution doesn't mean it is - hence the reason Athiests marry all the time.

Does this mean Christmas is no longer a religious holiday since it has been co-opted by the corporate interests? Marriage existed long before being co-opted by the state and thus is not a state thing, you are free to acquire the secular version AKA civil union

I would contest that assertion- I see marriage as a social and legal institution first and foremost, and the religious associations simply reflect the human tendency to tie religion to any major event in their lives. Remember, most of these institutions, in their basic forms, date back to a pre-Abrahamic era, when the line between religious and secular life was far less well defined, and the modern concept of secular life simply didn't really exist, so the fact that Christianity later usurped paganism as the associated religion does not at all imply that it also usurped the more ancient secular aspects of marriage.

I'm pretty sure that Abrahamic religions came up with the FOREVER part, in secular stuff there is almost always an cancellation clause

 

[MobBoss]

A privilage for being Heterosexual.

Uh..wrong. Contrary to belief gays can get married to an opposite sex partner, and through history many have indeed done so. This hasnt changed one bit in the majority of states. What is prohibited, just like polygamy before it, is same sex marriage. That prohibition, in the states that still do prohibit it, is applied equally amongst all citizens.

This is in essence what really makes this argument different that the race marriage issue.

 

[Arwon]

"Gays can just marry the other sex instead" is truly silly argument. What, is that less damaging to the institution of marriage or something?

I guess interracial marriage bans were ok cos whites could still marry whites.

 

[Frank Drebin]

but blacks could marry people of their own race just like whites?
like polygamy, only interracial marriage was prohibited, applied equally to blacks and whites?

 

[MobBoss]

"Gays can just marry the other sex instead" is truly silly argument.

Says you. I disagree. I point out again, plenty do by their own choice. I also point out again as marriage is a legal contract, its also perfectly legal to marry someone you dont love, or to marry for money as opposed to love or whatever. Marriage isnt denied anyone, but same-sex marriage is denied to all.

but blacks could marry people of their own race just like whites?
like polygamy, only interracial marriage was prohibited, applied equally to blacks and whites?

Except our constitution mentions race specifically and condems such issues based on race. On sexual preference? Not so much.

 

[madviking]

AntiProp8Peeps++;

 

[Arwon]

Says you. I disagree. I point out again, plenty do by their own choice. I also point out again as marriage is a legal contract, its also perfectly legal to marry someone you dont love, or to marry for money as opposed to love or whatever. Marriage isnt denied anyone, but same-sex marriage is denied to all.

You can't think that's anything other than ridiculous sophistry, surely.

So the argument "it's ok to marry someonje you don't love, or for money" is supposed coming from the "defend the institution of marriage" side? Gay people marrying people of the opposite sex is your solution? Sham marriages protect the integrity of traditional marriage?

"We had to destroy the institution of marriage in order to save it."

 

[Bei1052]

Errr, wait. So redefining a state's constitution to define marriage as between one man and woman, which SCOTUS has already once stated in within the state's right to do as it doesn't violate the Constitution, is unconstitutional?!?!?! It's unconstitutional based on what? The only thing it could be unconstitutional based on would be the state's Constitution, but the state Constitution says that that marriage is between one man and one woman, so it can't be Constitutional based on the only thing it could be unconstitutional under. Two plus two does not equal five.

It doesn't matter what you think of gay marriage. The ruling doesn't have a leg to stand on, which I suppose is why upon reading this thread, most responses have been along the lines of agreeing with the outcome you think should be the outcome, even if it's reached through the most unprincipled of methods.

 

[Karalysia]

Boom!

SAN FRANCISCO — A federal judge overturned California's gay marriage ban Wednesday with an unequivocal ruling that could eventually force the U.S. Supreme Court to confront the question of whether same-sex couples have a constitutional right to wed.

Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker's strongly worded opinion in the landmark case — the first in a federal court to examine if states can lawfully limit marriage to a man and a woman — touched off a celebration outside the courthouse. Later in the day, a jubilant crowd marched through the city that has long been a haven for gays.

"Proposition 8 singles out gays and lesbians and legitimates their unequal treatment," Walker wrote.

"Proposition 8 perpetuates the stereotype that gays and lesbians are incapable of forming long-term loving relationships and that gays and lesbians are not good parents."

California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger:"For the hundreds of thousands of Californians in gay and lesbian households who are managing their day-to-day lives, this decision affirms the full legal protections and safeguards I believe everyone deserves. At the same time, it provides an opportunity for all Californians to consider our history of leading the way to the future, and our growing reputation of treating all people and their relationships with equal respect and dignity."

California Attorney GeneralJerry Brown:"In striking down Proposition 8, Judge Walker came to the same conclusion I did when I declined to defend it. Proposition 8 violates the equal protection guarantee of the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution by taking away the right of same-sex couples to marry, without a sufficient governmental interest."

San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom: "Today's decision is a victory for the fundamental American idea enshrined in our Constitution that separate is not equal and that all people deserve equal rights and treatment under the law. It is a victory for the thousands of California couples, their families and friends whose lives and loving, committed relationships have once again been affirmed in the eyes of the law."

The ruling puts Walker at the forefront of the gay marriage debate. The longtime federal judge was appointed by President Ronald Reagan.

"Proposition 8 places the force of law behind stigmas against gays and lesbians, that gays and lesbians are not as good as heterosexuals and gay and lesbian relationships do not deserve the full recognition of society. Proposition 8 singles out gays and lesbians and legitimates their unequal treatment, Proposition 8 perpetuates the stereotype that gays and lesbians are incapable of forming long-term loving relationships and that gays and lesbians are not good parents. Moral disapproval alone is an improper basis on which to deny rights to gay men and lesbians. The evidence shows conclusively that Proposition 8 enacts, without reason, a private moral view that same-sex couples are inferior to opposite-sex couples, Proposition 8 fails to advance any rational basis in singling out gay men and lesbians for denial of a marriage license."

So sweet. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38560562/ns/us_news-life/

 

[Lone Wolf]

That court decision once more proves that the West, despite its hypocritical talk about "human rights" is authoritaian and corrupt The people had spoken against the corporate overlords' destruction of morality and approval of debauchery, but the corporations that rule America spitted on the people's will The corporations want everyone to engage in homosexual copulation and pay no attention to their exploitation of the whole planet

 

[Leifmk]

Separation of Church and State is why I support everyone getting civil unions and justly returning marriage to religious institutions

"Returning"? It was never theirs in the first place. Certainly not "originally" (the Catholic church only started pushing the idea that marriage had to be done as a religious sacrament after the Reformation, and Protestant churches have varied in their outlook as one might expect), and in the modern era entirely civil legal marriages have been available in pretty much every civilized country since at least the mid-19th century and in some places much longer (and in the specific case of the USA, I believe since the country's foundation).

For members of various religions to start complaining NOW about something that's been that way since before anyone now living was born is sort of... disingenious.

 

[Kal'thzar]

Does this mean Christmas is no longer a religious holiday since it has been co-opted by the corporate interests? Marriage existed long before being co-opted by the state and thus is not a state thing, you are free to acquire the secular version AKA civil union

You do realise that the Christian religion co-opted marriage too? Prior to that it was usually an agreement between families and so on. Neither institution should be telling people what is and is not 'correct', the states position on gay marriage should be to simply recognise it as one of many human couplings.

 

[tycoonist]

marriage is a religious institution thus saying gay marriage references religion so you can't make a good argument for gay marriage without referencing religion either, congratulations on checkmating yourself though

you pretty much just embarressed yourself. marriage is a legal instituition as well.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Prop 8 couldnt have passed without a lot of independent or even democrats voting for it as well. Remember, it was in California and thats not exactly a bastion of conservatism.

What I came in here to point out. I love all this "SUCK IT REPUBLICANS" talk when the state this is all happening in supported Obama like 80-20. Most of us leftists are too scared or oblivious to point out the real issue, all the goddamn blacks and latinos we have who are just disgusted by gays in general and constantly throwing around "man, you a fag" and such. Because hell if most of you can stand being called racist even when it's not true - easier to just blame the conservative boogeyman, right?

Moderator Action: Warned - Inappropriate/racist language.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Truronian]

Except our constitution mentions race specifically and condems such issues based on race. On sexual preference? Not so much.

So you'd consider people only being able to marry within their race as perfectly fair and equal system were it not for the constitution?

 

[dwaxe]

Except our constitution mentions race specifically and condems such issues based on race. On sexual preference? Not so much.

Race wasn't in the original constitution. It took a civil war and over 14 amendments to add it. Interracial marriage wasn't protected by that amendment until nearly a hundred years later.

Do you deny that the constitution is a living document?

 

[Haseri]

Marriage isnt denied anyone, but same-sex marriage is denied to all.

Why is that?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Does this mean Christmas is no longer a religious holiday since it has been co-opted by the corporate interests?

Indeed it does. Christianity already nicked it from the pagans, so it's either an non-religious holiday, or a pagan holiday. Can't have your cake and eat it.