Decision on Prop 8 pending

[Ziggy Stardust]

Gather around boys and girls, back by popular demand, our beloved comrade Stewart had a thing on this issue.

Californigaytion

 

[cardgame]

Very good! esp. around 6:04

 

[nonconformist]

A bit more on the birth vs behavior front: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300



Study done on the possibility of child molestation possibly having a role in the development of homosexuality. That would be behavior and environment after being born there Cutlass. So, if its 100% born, Cutlass...how do you explain the above study and its findings?

Jesus Christ, you're a pathetic and disgusting human being...dragging up paedophilia as an argument against gay marriage, because gays were molested as kids?
JEsus Christ. Only in america.

Moderator Action: Flaming
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Cutlass]

And your not reading mine apparently. I am saying they can choose that as well.



You err greatly, as I dont propose anything in regards to that and thus offer no logic to that particular study except in the fact that it gives decent evidence that homosexuality simply isnt a genetic/born issue and that behavior and environment have effects as well.

Speaking of which:

@Cutlass. I am still waiting for your reply to that. Very much so.

What's to reply to? Unless you have a survey of gay people who claim that it is a choice, you have no reason to assume that it is. No one has ever presented the tiniest sliver of reason to believe that it is a choice.

 

[warpus]

And your not reading mine apparently. I am saying they can choose that as well.

You have been saying all along that people are able to choose to live what sort of lifestyle they lead - have a family, sleep with a girl, or sleep with a guy, be a part of the "gay scene". That's how you have been defining the difference between "homosexual" and "heterosexual". If I'm wrong here, what *are* you saying? You should probably spell it out, because if you have a different definition of 'homosexual' and 'heterosexual' than the people arguing against you, you should probably spell it out cause it's leading to a lot of disagreements.

 

[MobBoss]

Jesus Christ, you're a pathetic and disgusting human being...dragging up paedophilia as an argument against gay marriage, because gays were molested as kids?
JEsus Christ. Only in america.

Someone has utterly missed the point. The study wasnt an argument against gay marriage, but simply one to support that homosexuality isnt all genetic, but rather can be associated with post birth behavior and enviornment.

I would have hoped that you, being a forensic scientist, would have noticed that, and actually appreciated some inclusion of actual scientific study into the thread.

Guess not.

What's to reply to? Unless you have a survey of gay people who claim that it is a choice, you have no reason to assume that it is. No one has ever presented the tiniest sliver of reason to believe that it is a choice.

Nice dodge. Whats to reply to is my link to the study pretty much refutes your claim that homosexuality is born and thats all there is to it. Thats simply not the case, and your dodge here is simply a strawman to that particular point. And we both know it.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Someone has utterly missed the point. The study wasnt an argument against gay marriage, but simply one to support that homosexuality isnt all genetic, but rather can be associated with post birth behavior and enviornment.

I think the point being "utterly missed" is that this particular study is frequently misused in evangelical circles as supposed "proof" of their absurd allegation that sexual abuse is the major cause of homosexuality.

http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/06/05/a-major-study-of-child-abuse-and-homosexuality-revisited/

In evangelical circles, sexual abuse is frequently offered as a major cause of homosexuality, if not the major cause. NARTH often points to the traumatic experience as an important factor. Recently, Focus on the Family promoted a paper by Jeff Johnston on the topic. Cited by Dean Byrd in that paper and often cited in this context is a study based on a 2000 doctoral dissertation by Marie Tomeo, titled “Sexual Orientation Development” and conducted at the California School of Professional Psychology. The journal article based on the dissertation was published by the Archives of Sexual Behavior in 2001 with the following reference:

Tomeo, M. E., Templer, D. L., Anderson, S., & Kotler, D. (2001). Comparative data of childhood adolescence molestation in heterosexual and homosexual persons. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 30, 535–541.

These results are at odds with the discussion sections of the dissertation and the journal. They are also at odds with the Table from the journal article. For what its worth, Dr. Templer thinks the correct data are in the Table from the journal article.

The bottom line is that the study should not be cited until a follow up correction can be made. The main results — gays report more abuse than straights — may indeed be correct, given the similarity to past studies. However, I do not believe any inferences about causation should be made. Without the actual surveys, there is no way a reader can figure out the results from the journal article and/or the dissertation.

One final thought, the research on sexual abuse among GLBT populations is often misused to make inferences about causation. There are many reasons why this line of research is important but causation is not at the top. Sexual abuse is a profoundly disruptive experience for many people and may contribute to a variety of negative outcomes in adulthood. Finding appropriate clinical and ministry responses may be clouded by focusing on the trauma as a cause of same-sex attraction.

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

Members of disliked minority groups are often stereotyped as representing a danger to the majority's most vulnerable members. For example, Jews in the Middle Ages were accused of murdering Christian babies in ritual sacrifices. Black men in the United States were often lynched after being falsely accused of raping White women.
In a similar fashion, gay people have often been portrayed as a threat to children. Back in 1977, when Anita Bryant campaigned successfully to repeal a Dade County (FL) ordinance prohibiting anti-gay discrimination, she named her organization "Save Our Children," and warned that "a particularly deviant-minded [gay] teacher could sexually molest children" (Bryant, 1977, p. 114). [Bibliographic references are on a different web page]

In recent years, antigay activists have routinely asserted that gay people are child molesters. This argument was often made in debates about the Boy Scouts of America's policy to exclude gay scouts and scoutmasters. More recently, in the wake of Rep. Mark Foley's resignation from the US House of Representatives in 2006, antigay activists and their supporters seized on the scandal to revive this canard.

It has also been raised in connection with scandals about the Catholic church's attempts to cover up the abuse of young males by priests. Indeed, the Vatican's early response to the 2002 revelations of widespread Church cover-ups of sexual abuse by priests was to declare that gay men should not be ordained.

Public belief in the stereotype

The number of Americans who believe the myth that gay people are child molesters has declined substantially. In a 1970 national survey, more than 70% of respondents agreed with the assertions that "Homosexuals are dangerous as teachers or youth leaders because they try to get sexually involved with children" or that "Homosexuals try to play sexually with children if they cannot get an adult partner."1

By contrast, in a 1999 national poll, the belief that most gay men are likely to molest or abuse children was endorsed by only 19% of heterosexual men and 10% of heterosexual women. Even fewer – 9% of men and 6% of women – regarded most lesbians as child molesters.

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).

Science cannot prove a negative. Thus, these studies do not prove that homosexual or bisexual males are no more likely than heterosexual males to molest children. However, each of them failed to prove the alternative hypothesis that homosexual males are more likely than heterosexual men to molest children or to be sexually attracted to children or adolescents.

Some conservative groups have argued that scientific research strongly supports their claims that homosexuality and pedophilia are linked. The Family Research Council has produced what is perhaps the most extensive attempt to document this claim. It is an article by Timothy J. Dailey titled Homosexuality and Child Abuse.

With 76 footnotes, many of them referring to papers in scientific journals, it appears at first glance to be a thorough and scholarly discussion of the issue. On further examination, however, its central argument – that "the evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls" – doesn't hold up.

Conclusion

The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

hey wait a sec.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/us/politics/06prop.html?src=mv

Obama "supports equal gay rights but opposes marriage rights for gay men and lesbians" ? I am reading this right? WTH is wrong with the guy?

 

[Red Door]

hey wait a sec.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/us/politics/06prop.html?src=mv

Obama "supports equal gay rights but opposes marriage rights for gay men and lesbians" ? I am reading this right? WTH is wrong with the guy?

Political pandering. He does not want to offend the more conservative, Church-going Democrats and Independents. And frankly, it is sick and annoying to see.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that's what I thought... sick and annoying indeed.

 

[useless]

The fact that you honestly believe that pedophilia somehow causes homosexuality leads me to believe that you have some serious issues Mob with homosexuals regardless if you admit it or not. Especially as you have no qualms with using pedophilia as an argument FOR the myth that homosexuality is a choice. Disgusting. Take a look at what you're saying, this is the epitome of homophobia people. The myth that homosexuals are child predators or "created" by molestation is a serious lie spouted out by only the most insecure of people and religious organisations.

 

[classical_hero]

What's to reply to? Unless you have a survey of gay people who claim that it is a choice, you have no reason to assume that it is. No one has ever presented the tiniest sliver of reason to believe that it is a choice.

The evidence does not show their to be any genetic cause all the other factors are just so wishy washy, that they can mean anything. Every study done on the issue has not shown anything as being remotely s being the cause of homosexuality, so by deduction, i is a choice, whether is sub conscious or not does not matter.

 

[El_Machinae]

Moderator Action: Posts connecting homosexuality and pedophilia can have their place. Unfortunately, this topic is obviously inflammatory. Any posts will have to be very careful to not include any implications, or it will cross a line. I'd recommend veering away from this topic, because it's not germane, anyway

 

[MobBoss]

I think the point being "utterly missed" is that this particular study is frequently misused in evangelical circles as supposed "proof" of their absurd allegation that sexual abuse is the major cause of homosexuality.

You are now arguing a point I didnt make, and I certainly wouldnt say it was a 'major cause' for the simple reason the issue is so complex as to not have a 'major cause' currently evident.

Contributing factor? Possibly. Major cause? Not so much.

The fact that you honestly believe that pedophilia somehow causes homosexuality leads me to believe that you have some serious issues Mob with homosexuals regardless if you admit it or not.

Good to know that when you are confronted with some legitimate data like you asked for ealier...you choose to ignore it.

Perhaps your the one with the issues since you seem determined to ignore facts you dont like.

Especially as you have no qualms with using pedophilia as an argument FOR the myth that homosexuality is a choice. Disgusting.

Except I didnt make that argument. At all, and your comment here is gross misrepresentation of me that I have already clearly explained several times.

Take a look at what uour saying, this is the epitome of homophobia people.

No, the epitome of homophobia is more akin to the actions by the WBC or violence perpetrated against homosexuals simply for that reason alone.

But its good to see that you cant tell the difference. Puts the entire thread into perspective quite well.

 

[sumit1207]

There is heavy overlap between believers of mutable sexuality and creationism. Maybe, just maybe, inconclusive evidence is not going to matter to them at all because their infallible book is all that does.

 

[useless]

Continuing the myth of homosexuality and pedophilia is both crass, disgusting and offensive.

 

[NovaKart]

1. Gore Vidal doesn't represent all gay people. Some women were against having the right to vote, should that be used as an argument against women's suffrage?

2. Some people on this board are confusing bisexuality with homosexuality. Sexuality is a strange thing and sometimes difficult to define. Most bisexual people I've known would gravitate towards either being homo or heterosexual. Someone might be primarily straight but occassionaly have an attraction to someone of the same sex. Even if this person self-identifies as being gay or straight he/she is technically speaking bisexual. This doesn't change the fact that a significant number of people are gay or straight.

3. We could argue for years over the causes of homosexuality. It does seem like we all agree that homosexuality develops either before birth or in early childhood. Regardless, it is not a choice. If you know someone who went through a "phase" of being gay and later turned straight, I would consider that person bisexual. You may also have known someone who dated women and later became gay. That person could either be bisexual, but what is more likely, was trying to be straight or couldn't admit to himself that he was gay at that time.

History is full of gays who married because that's what society expected of them. They can marry and even have children but they are in a marriage that cannot be sexually or romantically satisfying for them.

 

[MobBoss]

hey wait a sec.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/us/politics/06prop.html?src=mv

Obama "supports equal gay rights but opposes marriage rights for gay men and lesbians" ? I am reading this right? WTH is wrong with the guy?

Not sure why this is a surprise. This was what he put out during his campaign as well. As I have said several times now, this is more than just a conservative GOP issue...but no one seems to want to listen to that.

Gore Vidal doesn't represent all gay people.

Happily, no one made this assertion. It was only brought up to refute the 'if you were gay would you be against gay marriage' question.

 

[Cu Chulainn]

Political pandering. He does not want to offend the more conservative, Church-going Democrats and Independents. And frankly, it is sick and annoying to see.

Indeed, though quite a bit less sick than people who actively oppose the rights of their fellow citizens. Every time Obama missteps I remind myself that the alternative was McCain/Palin. *shudder*

The fact that you honestly believe that pedophilia somehow causes homosexuality leads me to believe that you have some serious issues Mob with homosexuals regardless if you admit it or not. Especially as you have no qualms with using pedophilia as an argument FOR the myth that homosexuality is a choice. Disgusting. Take a look at what you're saying, this is the epitome of homophobia people. The myth that homosexuals are child predators or "created" by molestation is a serious lie spouted out by only the most insecure of people and religious organisations.

But he can't be a homophobe, he said he wasn't. Don't you know it takes more than wanting to deny homosexuals basic human rights? You have to like, say you hate them and stuff.

 

[MobBoss]

But he can't be a homophobe, he said he wasn't. Don't you know it takes more than wanting to deny homosexuals basic human rights? You have to like, say you hate them and stuff.

So, Obama is a homophobe too then?