Defeating the Right:Generational Shift?

[E.man]

It looks like US, AU, UK have moved away from the Right possibly because the Right was based on extreme personalities, whether that's a generational long term change might depend how far Left they go and a reaction to that.

NZ and Canada don t conform to this because they didn't go Right to start with.

AU Left (Greens) has been slowly increasing over decades. How far will they go before there's a pull back to the centre? The more extreme left appears more often the more Greens get elected and don't do themselves any favours.

AU Centre Left (Labor) has majority govt but needs Left support to pass bills in the Senate.

AU Right (Liberals) have stayed far Right and will have to change to be more centrist to regain support.

 

[Zardnaar]

This is just self-serving nonsense. Conservatism has to reproduce itself through ideological hegemony and through propaganda that has had to become increasingly sophisticated as increasing economic complexity has made it more difficult to control the information environment (it was easier when only 1/10th of the population could read).

There is nothing less natural than the brutal hierarchies conservatism seeks to defend and reproduce.

I would argue conservatism is more natural tbh. Not the farright version of it being pedaled though.

Most of the worlds population doesn't swing liberal it's only a small % and even then 30-40% is usually conservative.

Right used to win 2/3 elections here but you read their manifesto from say early 70's it's completely different from what they're serving up now.

80's they got hijacked by 1920's style free market types.

 

[Gorbles]

It looks like US, AU, UK have moved away from the Right

The UK hasn't done anything of the sort, I'm afraid. The Conservatives have been in power for over a decade and have been getting steadily more right-wing. Their only meaningful opposition has purged its own left-of-centre members to chase right-leaning voters.

 

[Zardnaar]

The UK hasn't done anything of the sort, I'm afraid. The Conservatives have been in power for over a decade and have been getting steadily more right-wing. Their only meaningful opposition has purged its own left-of-centre members to chase right-leaning voters.

Polling they're facing electoral oblivion. Just haven't had an election to confirm it.

 

[E.man]

The UK hasn't done anything of the sort, I'm afraid. The Conservatives have been in power for over a decade and have been getting steadily more right-wing. Their only meaningful opposition has purged its own left-of-centre members to chase right-leaning voters.

Ah yes sorry. Actual incumbents are indeed Right. I was thinking of their current polling which I hear is very low.

Still a couple of years to the next UK election.
With Right polling so badly will voters just vote for anyone else to get rid of them, as it appears they did in US, AU.

As to the OP idea of generational swing to the left; the Left might get young support but it's not like we've seen a broad sweep to Left govt in the Anglosphere.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ah yes sorry. Actual incumbents are indeed Right. I was thinking of their current polling which I hear is very low.

Still a couple of years to the next UK election.
With Right polling so badly will voters just vote for anyone else to get rid of them, as it appears they did in US, AU.

As to the OP idea of generational swing to the left; the Left might get young support but it's not like we've seen a broad sweep to Left govt in the Anglosphere.

I'm arguing it's starting.

Republican strategists predicted it almost two decades ago and noticed it was a problem 2012.

Democrats were complacent about it.

So is it starting now barring any drastic shocks (revolution, war, depression).

 

[Gorbles]

As to the OP idea of generational swing to the left; the Left might get young support but it's not like we've seen a broad sweep to Left govt in the Anglosphere.

There is no longer a left-wing party here, so. Choices are "eh" and "worse".

As for the next election, two years is a long time away.

 

[Zardnaar]

There is no longer a left-wing party here, so. Choices are "eh" and "worse".

As for the next election, two years is a long time away.

Same thing here. Eh and worse so I'll vote for eg with low expectations.

Greens exist but they're fairly useless.

Bad-National
Worse ACT
Eh-Labour
Useless-Greens

Oh and the Maori party who had claims they're genetically superior on their website.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Part of growing up is learning that the house always wins. And that rather than fighting windmills you need to stand next to them and collect the loot and XP left over from all the fools that do.

Jokes aside though you both completely missed the point of what I was saying.

The point is that there is a period in ones life, roughly corresponding with the period of young adulthood when the average person is objectively at the worst possible point of what their life is ever going to be in terms of stress.

Children live in what is essentially a golden cage. Sure, things aren't perfect but realistically a child or teenager does not actually have any real life altering struggles to deal with. Being popular in school or having good grades is not even on the same planet as having to actually worry about paying for your own food and clothes or having to worry if you can afford rent this month. To be a child is frankly comparable to being a pet. All you have to worry about is making sure the guy feeding you thinks you are cute.

Older adults are in a similarly decent position. If you played your cards right by the time you reach a certain age you will have already established your self sufficiently that they have a stable position in society and economy. Sure, you might not become rich or famous or what ever other thing people dream of as kids. But you know where they are going, where you can reasonably get and that the worst part is behind you. And hopefully this includes a comfortable or at least reasonably tolerable life style.

But those years in the middle are where you have to work the most and see the least benefit from that work because so much effort has to go into building up for the future. Going to university, internships, entry level jobs, getting married and having go through the starting stages of figuring out how a family is supposed to work and getting your own home all happen in this relatively short period of time for most people. So it's natural that it is in this period that they have the most incentive to try and change the world and the least to loose from gambling on harebrained schemes to do so. Especially once you consider just how much of a shock it is going from the carefree life they had before to suddenly having to work for a living.

At the same time this period overlaps with the time in ones life where one simply does not have enough life experience dealing with the real world to make good decisions. And when you combine those two it's very easy for manipulative sociopathic conman to get them to believe in propaganda and lies and convince them that utopia is just one dead jew, imprisoned communist or purchased NFT away.

1. I'm sure the homeless and otherwise marginalized children and seniors are comforted by your blanket statement that they have no reason to be stressed.

2. I used to be a census taker, both as part of the municipal census and for Elections Canada, to make sure the voter's list was as accurate as possible (how things were done in pre-internet days). Going door-to-door was interesting. I noticed that people who lived in houses were more receptive to answering questions than people living in apartments, even when I explained why it would benefit them to be counted (has to do with grants from the feds to the provinces, and provinces to the cities/counties; more people = more money to spend on stuff people either need or want; I usually used the example of the City constantly whining about the snow removal budget to get people to realize how it affects them personally).

3. Propaganda works on anyone who lacks critical thinking skills, and older people can be every bit as susceptible to that as younger. I have a daily argument with one on FB, who for some reason worships the ground my MLA sashays around on, even though she doesn't live anywhere near my riding and doesn't have a clue how Canadian politics actually works (she's American, but has lived in this province for some years).

Critical thinking skills is something my junior high social studies teacher endeavored to get us to learn, whether deciding on who to vote for, or how to evaluate the merits and legitimacy of a charity. I was 13 at that time, and I do think I learned these lessons reasonably well. Some candidates and agents get annoyed at the questions I ask, but my teacher taught us to cut through the BS to get to the bottom line, ask hard, uncomfortable questions, and note that what they refuse to answer says as much as what they do answer.

It looks like US, AU, UK have moved away from the Right possibly because the Right was based on extreme personalities, whether that's a generational long term change might depend how far Left they go and a reaction to that.

NZ and Canada don t conform to this because they didn't go Right to start with.

Out of curiosity, how far back do you consider "to start with"?

 

[Angst]

Part of growing up is learning that the house always wins. And that rather than fighting windmills you need to stand next to them and collect the loot and XP left over from all the fools that do.

Jokes aside though you both completely missed the point of what I was saying.

The point is that there is a period in ones life, roughly corresponding with the period of young adulthood when the average person is objectively at the worst possible point of what their life is ever going to be in terms of stress.

Children live in what is essentially a golden cage. Sure, things aren't perfect but realistically a child or teenager does not actually have any real life altering struggles to deal with. Being popular in school or having good grades is not even on the same planet as having to actually worry about paying for your own food and clothes or having to worry if you can afford rent this month. To be a child is frankly comparable to being a pet. All you have to worry about is making sure the guy feeding you thinks you are cute.

Older adults are in a similarly decent position. If you played your cards right by the time you reach a certain age you will have already established your self sufficiently that they have a stable position in society and economy. Sure, you might not become rich or famous or what ever other thing people dream of as kids. But you know where they are going, where you can reasonably get and that the worst part is behind you. And hopefully this includes a comfortable or at least reasonably tolerable life style.

But those years in the middle are where you have to work the most and see the least benefit from that work because so much effort has to go into building up for the future. Going to university, internships, entry level jobs, getting married and having go through the starting stages of figuring out how a family is supposed to work and getting your own home all happen in this relatively short period of time for most people. So it's natural that it is in this period that they have the most incentive to try and change the world and the least to loose from gambling on harebrained schemes to do so. Especially once you consider just how much of a shock it is going from the carefree life they had before to suddenly having to work for a living.

At the same time this period overlaps with the time in ones life where one simply does not have enough life experience dealing with the real world to make good decisions. And when you combine those two it's very easy for manipulative sociopathic conman to get them to believe in propaganda and lies and convince them that utopia is just one dead jew, imprisoned communist or purchased NFT away.

fwiw i understand what you're trying to say. it was just a bad quote, since it attributes brains to, again, embracing abuse.

some notes.

first on the brain, just to hopefully outline how problematic the "wisdom of age tending towards conservatism" is.

personally my history was the reverse. i grew up in a conservative environment and was very socially sheltered (among other things, which i'll touch on quickly below). i was a stupid kid. i had no conception of societal poverty, and entered my teenage years quite right-wing. since, i have only grown increasingly distant to that shroud of being covering up the ills of the system. contrary to your notions of housing and building a life, it rather has the underbelly of dirty consumption. the life connected to this "brain" will make prosperity impossible. embracing it and not doing anything about it just because you're comfortable - it is simply not growing up and getting wisdom and a brain. it's stupid. like, abhorrently, bafflingly, ridiculously stupid. it's getting a convenient life and then turning around and whining about possible slight inconveniences that could make life fundamentally possible for others in the future. so i grew up and turned vaguely left. not because of dreams or propaganda or lack of experience, but because i got smarter.

as you may be able to tell, i wouldn't care so much for this if not for the climate crisis. i wish it didn't exist. i wouldn't care one bit about the way people lived otherwise. they do them. i'm perfectly content with my economic prospects otherwise. the issue is that they don't do them, they do everyone.

and secondly, on stress, like, i don't know.

i think you harshly underrate the burdens of stress on life today, and i think you underrate how increasingly it is a pipe dream to settle down somewhere when you're older. i'll also say that while my cage was socioeconomically golden, it was not without active abuse under the power of careless people, and i'm nowhere near alone in this. this golden cage is often a lie, and trying to actually make it golden gets harsh reactions from the right. and while this could explain why I became such a vaguely dirty leftie or whatever, it's simply not the same for each kid with abuse. there's plenty of people much worse than me, and they go straight radical right libertarian.

like for some of those that achieve the middle class dream, sure, they simply don't have as much to worry about. for others, it's not the case.

also, as i say a lot elsewhere - i know what you mean with "the real world", but it's a really unfortunate phrasing (as is the phrase that sparked this whole bit); a child's world is simply, concretely, not unreal. it's as real as everyone else's. it's especially a frustrating phrase since, like the brain, it appeals to something incredibly construed, and actively attempting to hide its dangerous premises.

 

[El_Machinae]

There is nothing less natural than the brutal hierarchies conservatism seeks to defend and reproduce.

My brain exploded with trying to define 'natural' as intended here. Like, I'm not quibbling or anything. And heck, I'm not even sure what you mean by 'conservativism'. It's just that the word 'natural' is so nebulous that using it in a way to say that there is 'nothing less' natural .... [head popping noises]

 

[Angst]

to me, the question isn't whether it's natural or not, but whether it causes suffering. in some cases, it makes sense to talk about natural states, but when it comes to modern society, it's both constructed and dangerous.

 

[E.man]

1. I'm sure the homeless and otherwise marginalized children and seniors are comforted by your blanket statement that they have no reason to be stressed.

2. I used to be a census taker, both as part of the municipal census and for Elections Canada, to make sure the voter's list was as accurate as possible (how things were done in pre-internet days). Going door-to-door was interesting. I noticed that people who lived in houses were more receptive to answering questions than people living in apartments, even when I explained why it would benefit them to be counted (has to do with grants from the feds to the provinces, and provinces to the cities/counties; more people = more money to spend on stuff people either need or want; I usually used the example of the City constantly whining about the snow removal budget to get people to realize how it affects them personally).

3. Propaganda works on anyone who lacks critical thinking skills, and older people can be every bit as susceptible to that as younger. I have a daily argument with one on FB, who for some reason worships the ground my MLA sashays around on, even though she doesn't live anywhere near my riding and doesn't have a clue how Canadian politics actually works (she's American, but has lived in this province for some years).

Critical thinking skills is something my junior high social studies teacher endeavored to get us to learn, whether deciding on who to vote for, or how to evaluate the merits and legitimacy of a charity. I was 13 at that time, and I do think I learned these lessons reasonably well. Some candidates and agents get annoyed at the questions I ask, but my teacher taught us to cut through the BS to get to the bottom line, ask hard, uncomfortable questions, and note that what they refuse to answer says as much as what they do answer.


Out of curiosity, how far back do you consider "to start with"?

Referring to the elections in US, AU, UK of Trump, Morrison, Johnson.
At that point I think Canada already had Trudeau ?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Referring to the elections in US, AU, UK of Trump, Morrison, Johnson.
At that point I think Canada already had Trudeau ?

Justin Trudeau first became PM in October 2015. At that time I had an orange "Keep Calm and Heave Steve" poster as my avatar, showing my intention to vote NDP; "Heave Steve" was a popular protest song that year, though nowhere near as popular as "Harperman".

The next election was in 2019, and for some stupid reason he called a snap election in 2021. So the next one is in 2025, rather than next year.

 

[Farm Boy]

i've heard this many times, variations of it, in danish too, and it's one of the god damn stupidest phrases in the world.

some of the rest of your post is closer to what's happening. when people get comfortable, they don't want to lose their money. the function is submitting to appeasement, not wisdom.

It's easier to daydream about how to make every person with <disadvantage/problem> have a more actualized life. If you have a fancy degree you might even draw your personal expenses out of funds dedicated to doing so.

It's much harder to lift one person with disability day in and day out, plus people look at the effort and start calling it a blessing instead of work, especially if it's uncompensated.

 

[Kaitzilla]

This is just self-serving nonsense. Conservatism has to reproduce itself through ideological hegemony and through propaganda that has had to become increasingly sophisticated as increasing economic complexity has made it more difficult to control the information environment (it was easier when only 1/10th of the population could read).

There is nothing less natural than the brutal hierarchies conservatism seeks to defend and reproduce.

Some of the old ways should be conserved.

If people want a revolution in affairs, I wish them good luck and hope they do it with eyes wide open.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

fwiw i understand what you're trying to say. it was just a bad quote, since it attributes brains to, again, embracing abuse.

I like to open or close these posts with a comedic or semi comedic remark. I feel that it adds levity to an otherwise serious conversation and keeps us away from this discussion getting too heated. As these things can be.

personally my history was the reverse. i grew up in a conservative environment and was very socially sheltered (among other things, which i'll touch on quickly below). i was a stupid kid. i had no conception of societal poverty, and entered my teenage years quite right-wing. since, i have only grown increasingly distant to that shroud of being covering up the ills of the system. contrary to your notions of housing and building a life, it rather has the underbelly of dirty consumption. the life connected to this "brain" will make prosperity impossible. embracing it and not doing anything about it just because you're comfortable - it is simply not growing up and getting wisdom and a brain. it's stupid. like, abhorrently, bafflingly, ridiculously stupid. it's getting a convenient life and then turning around and whining about possible slight inconveniences that could make life fundamentally possible for others in the future. so i grew up and turned vaguely left. not because of dreams or propaganda or lack of experience, but because i got smarter.

I feel you and I are not talking about the same thing. This is probably because t I am from Europe so I consider a lot of things that americans consider ultra left wing such as powerful trade unions, workers rights, free healthcare and education etc. to be the center position. And that's where I am going off when saying the things I do.

What I am talking about the tendency of young people, especially those from a middle class background to turn into radical political activists and revolutionaries. People like the communist terrorists of the last century, the anarchist bombers that started WW1 or the SJW. Those who think that the world is fundamentally broken and they have the one and only true fix. A fix that is so obviously correct that it justifies any means including trampling on everything and anything in their way such as history, culture, art or science and our basic rights and freedoms.

and secondly, on stress, like, i don't know.

i think you harshly underrate the burdens of stress on life today, and i think you underrate how increasingly it is a pipe dream to settle down somewhere when you're older. i'll also say that while my cage was socioeconomically golden, it was not without active abuse under the power of careless people, and i'm nowhere near alone in this. this golden cage is often a lie, and trying to actually make it golden gets harsh reactions from the right. and while this could explain why I became such a vaguely dirty leftie or whatever, it's simply not the same for each kid with abuse. there's plenty of people much worse than me, and they go straight radical right libertarian.

like for some of those that achieve the middle class dream, sure, they simply don't have as much to worry about. for others, it's not the case.

also, as i say a lot elsewhere - i know what you mean with "the real world", but it's a really unfortunate phrasing (as is the phrase that sparked this whole bit); a child's world is simply, concretely, not unreal. it's as real as everyone else's. it's especially a frustrating phrase since, like the brain, it appeals to something incredibly construed, and actively attempting to hide its dangerous premises.

It's not that I underestimate them but that I hold young people overestimate them. Is life perfect? Hell no. Is the world fair? Nope, newer was and newer will be. It's a lot of work for reasonably little payoff overall. But, and this is the crucial thing, it's not terrible either. Life is in fact NOT hell. Most people are not in fact living lives of abject misery, starvation, slavery or anything like that. This was not even true historically and it definitively is not today. Certainly nothing that would ever justify the idea that is so often toted by young people that this whole world is rotten beyond repair and needs to be burned down in the flames of revolution.

But when you dive into it all head first it can look much worse than it is. And at that point it becomes easy with a bit of skill in manipulation to convince you that you can turn back the clock and go back to the blissfully utopia of youth if only you follow his three step program for ultimate justice. Just make sure to buy his NFT's, vote for him for supreme leader and punch all those fascists in the face where ever you see them.

That by the way is why you see most radical activists come from a middle class background. If you are poor, the rigors of getting by day to day hardly change just because you reached a magical age of X. Poor dirt farmers from Elbonia or industrial urchins from 19th century London already live a harsh existence of labor and struggle all their lives. So for them it's just business as usual. The rich equally don't really see a difference. If you were rich and pampered as a kid you'll stay so as an adult. It's not like you are about to give up your millions and get a real job.

But those in the middle have a big dip in quality of life once they have to start paying their own dues and learnt he hard way that actions have consequences. And until they get used to it they are prime targets for manipulators and demagogues.

 

[Gorbles]

What I am talking about the tendency of young people, especially those from a middle class background to turn into radical political activists and revolutionaries. People like the communist terrorists of the last century, the anarchist bombers that started WW1 or the SJW. Those who think that the world is fundamentally broken and they have the one and only true fix. A fix that is so obviously correct that it justifies any means including trampling on everything and anything in their way such as history, culture, art or science and our basic rights and freedoms.

This is absolutely hilarious, tyvm for posting this peak content. Makes a disparate demographic of individuals interested in social justice out to be absolutely radical folks.

And if you think that poor people are not activists, then I can only assume you have no actual contact with said activists and rely on conservative or other right-leaning media for your view of such demographics.

Somewhat relatedly, this is an appropriate link that hopefully embeds correctly:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1599627042425012225

 

[Senethro]

Centrists and moderates sure do like to tout the benefits they've gained at the hands of demogogues and radicals while editing them, or their radical nature out of history.

 

[Angst]

I feel you and I are not talking about the same thing. This is probably because t I am from Europe so I consider a lot of things that americans consider ultra left wing such as powerful trade unions, workers rights, free healthcare and education etc. to be the center position. And that's where I am going off when saying the things I do.

read the rest, and don't have much to say, but just wanted to say i'm from denmark : )