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Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lain, Mar 26, 2017.

  1. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    Spoiler :
    I didn't go out of my way to save but I should have some (later).

    Yes, I self-teched everything. You get 15+% of the total land area without filling out the top tundra/ice region, so I played it a little bit like I would a semi-iso game (with early neighbour elimination). That's pretty good 15% land too, only downside is of course that it's very slow to start with no happiness. Isolation games with little (bad) land you kinda have to strike ASAP, but here there's a nice base for hammers so I just focused on developing my cities without worrying about optics/astro date.

    I went early archery and settled on the hill by the pigs (with the pig tucked away behind) while a warrior blocked the 1-tile pass. All the barbarians suicided on said city, and my starting archer got 10XP for the HE (which was another reason I was happy to sit and develop).
    I didn't go aesthetics. Might've been good, but useless if the wonders go early. I also did not get many libraries and instead produced research, so it would be awkward to start GL/NE.

    By memory:
    Fishing-hunting-AH-archery-wheel-pottery-BW-writing-alphabet-sailing-currency

     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  2. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    Adding to the above:
    Spoiler :
    Maybe you can make a good case for aesthetics+literature because I also had the HE available for failgold -- it could be enough to sway the decision. But it still needs a (for the time being) useless 50 hammer building before you can put hammers into it, 1 city at a time, with a delayed return of gold so IDK. It delays currency which is super important with overseas trade routes. Going cheap granary directly into research is also strong.
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    For the Mao map.
    A buffy5 save with barbarian techs added, in case someone wants.

    Screenshot of start:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG


    I think this map is quite a puzzle.
    My T0 thoughts:
    Spoiler :

    It wasn't clear for me where to settle, and what to tech at all.
    Settle NW to get the forested PH right away, and get out a quick worker? Probably not since there isn't anything for the worker to do!
    Settle 1S, to get a unforested hill in BFC to mine?
    Wander inland? (Nothing Juicy shows up with any warrior move.)

    After thinking alot, trying out different things and reading thoughts from BornInACantalopue, @Fippy and @Rusten, I think I like the fishing aproach best.
    SiP, warrior on 2F1H, pop2 finish warrior, then WB working hammertiles and a worker on clams+forestedPH.
    The extra commerce from both clams and lake is quite useful.


    Barbs? Archery?
    Spoiler :

    I think that any play of a map like this one does call for an early archery, to have a slim chance with warriors we have to fogbust properly right from the bat, at positions and in ways that we could only know if we have previously scouted the map.
    If we position an warrior to stand guard at the forested PH SW of the pigs, we don't really know how big of a island we are on, and the barb wave could be really massive.
    So the path to AH should absolutely go through hunting.
    The path fishing->hunt->AH->archery is looking sound imho.


    Marble...?
    Spoiler :

    Doing something with the marble is certainly possible, if you bend over to do it and have some luck.
    Getting confu would be huge here, but I feel very queasy about this, since it's something that I would never dare to do "blind", but only when I know how to work the barbs. And even then it requires at least some luck. (To say nothing about how the distant land civs behave.)
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
    I think this is a pity. It would have been so fun to have a marble that was settle-worthy, since we are a EXP-leader.
    I stumbled upon this earlier and thought it could be nice to play around with these ideas:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/expansive-abuse-oracle-code-of-laws-fast-gm.429853/
    But when we need to tech TW too, and road everything... Hold of archery/bw/AH.. No, I can't do this with a clear consciousness.
     

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  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    And a general point about isolation...
    There seem to be some sort of consensus that it's best to hold of expanding beyond 5-7 cities.
    I have a hard time internalizing this wisdom since I don't quite understand the reasoning, do help me out!

    There are basically two types of isolation, one where you have enough land to keep your calm. You can develop your empire and look for an edge to leverage upon much later. The other type being that you are cramped for space and need to hit someone early.
    In the case where you are in a rush, I do see the point of getting to astro as early as possible, and then it's worth to put a break on expanding.

    But when we are not in that rush, why are we holding back our expansion?
    The only key techs that I can see that we need to get is pottery/writing, and for certain all limits are of by the time we have currency, no?

    Using @sampsa 's rough guieline of "the 4th city cost me 4gold, the 5th cost me 5gold, etc".
    What is the point of settling city 8 at T150 instead of T100?
    If it takes city #8 20 turns to start contibuting 8 gold equivalents to the empire, thereby carrying it's own weight and after that contributing...
    Why don't we want this positive contribution at T120? Why do we want to wait untill T170 to get this?

    Is it that you are seeing astro and overseas forregin trade as another bottleneck that we want to get through even with the calm developing aproach, such that 8+ cities isn't really working out for us?
    What am I missing here?
     
  5. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Think i liked Rusten's approach back then (but also now).
    This map seems best suited to be played not fully like Iso.
    Those cases are rare imo, but with much good land further away + an island for "foreign" trade routes,
    nothing wrong with going for currency and creating a bigger empire that costs more but will pay back later :)
     
  6. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    With map knowledge:
    Spoiler :
    Yes, that second island changes things abit. One could probably even make a case for TGL with that knowledge.
     
  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Barb galleys...
    T122, I have bulit 3 galleys of my own (lost two of them already.) and there are 5 barb galleys around.
    How do you handle them?
    Can't really afford spawnbusting the entire coastline pre-currency.
     
  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    The Mao-Map:

    Spoiler :

    I read up abit and found interesting ideas from Fippy and BorninCantalope
    I thought I would take a crack at this completely different (for me) aproach.

    I settled 1S, to gain access to two more unforested hills. Important since I'll postpone BW for quite abit.
    AH right away to improve the sheep+pigs.

    Techpath: AH -> Myst -> Masonry -> TW -> Polytheism -> BW -> Fishing -> Pottery.
    BW before Priesthood to supercharge the failgold bonanza with chops. And since Oracle when halfway through BW there was no point.

    Worker goes sheep->grasslandhill mine->plainshill mine->quarry->roading toward city#2.

    CIty works toward target size 4 and then stagnates working all mines, doing 12 hammers/turn.
    Plenty of warriors are produced.
    I put 8H into SH for some failgold early, and then about 30 into TGW.

    City#2 is settled with horses in first ring, and produces a monument first, then takes over ToAR duty while capital is busy with other things.
    A third worker is produced in time for BW to get alot of chops into ToAr asap.

    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


    Barb spears are not that much more dangerous than archers. The humble woody1 warrior gets almost 68% chance of victory against this foe when fortifed on a forested hill.
    When you are doing 12h/turn in your city early on, it's totally acceptable to lose quite a few.
    And with failgold rolling in, unit upkeep is not as much of a problem.

    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


    Only after BW is in, I go for fishing. Feels totally paradoxical, but it seems to work out ok!
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG



    1000BC situation.

    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG


    Compared to lains more normal aproach:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...rm-fractal-nh-ne.612863/page-12#post-14793902

    It seems like this is abit slower (only 2 cities), which is no suprise really, since we lacked chops early on.
    But in isolation I think this is less of a problem.

    Previously, I have dismissed this "early marble"-play as something extremly risky and suboptimal. But I felt quite safe the entire time. And now I think this is clearly an playable variant.

    Since marble and poly is in, I think this save is best followed up with writing->aesteth->litterature. To chop alot into parthenon, and possibly build GLibrary.
    Other ideas on how to follow up on this?


     

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  9. Zelus

    Zelus Chieftain

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    @kikrav
    You're trying to pile up fail gold, and not actually build the Temple of Artemis nor the Parthenon, am i correct ?

    If so, how valuable is it to chop into this ? I always thought chopping into failgold wonders/wealth building was kind of wasted.
     
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  10. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    In Iso there are no higher priorities than getting gold and commerce :)
    So turning 1 forest into 40 failgold = great.
     
  11. Zelus

    Zelus Chieftain

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    Ah, yes, especially since we are industrious. Thanks !
     
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Zelus Yes, the idea is to gather up a huuuge stack of failgold, this enables us to tech faster.
    Thanks for dropping by & welcome to the forums! :)
    We are not industrious (Mao is Exp+Pro), but we do have access to marble, thereby getting +100% extra return on our hammers.

    More mao map thoughts:
    Spoiler :


    I'm still not certain on how to follow up on this though.. Finish pottery, then PH->Writing->Monarchy?
    The extra island makes me want to go currency. Probably through math, since the luster of alfa is gone if I also go currency. Especially if I have failgold to ride through untill currency is in.

    Do I even bother with aestethics+litterature?
    When to squeeze in sailing?

     
  13. Zelus

    Zelus Chieftain

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    How to make a fool out of oneself in exactly 2 messages :D
     
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  14. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    I wanted to wait until I had finished my game, but seeing as you're playing I can drop off some early saves.

    I've since played to what I consider a winning/won position, but it's very time-consuming and I have other priorities right now. I'll get it done later.
     

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  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Oh nice Rusten, this will help alot!
    My failgold stash went dry after math, and I had to slog along between T116 and T136 like a snail to reach currency.
    It does not feel right at all, there is no way I could catch up with your T144 position like this.

    Any advice about what might have gone wrong earlier (or what I could have done to ease the situation) would be appreciated.

    Was it a horrible mistake going toward currency trough math and not through alfa?
    Was the expansion of Chendu premature?

    Spoiler 1AD and T136 overview screenshots :

    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG
     
  16. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    Chengdu is not premature, I settled it way earlier, but you need to have a WB in place the turn you settle it. Coastal fish is way better than the sheep.
    Mistake going mathematics over alphabet: Yes. Building research is a game-changer.

    You've got no GPP -- big mistake. A settled scientist is 6 base beakers/t +1 hammer. Get this early.
    Paying 18 gpt for units is too much. IMO making military police is a trap. That's 15 hammers that could've gone to research/wealth instead and it takes time to get it back. You can do it for some selected cities, but overall I think it's better to just have the 1 warrior per city.
     
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  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Is a capital move in the cards here? Thinking possible your Xian position.
    How do you decide where to settle your GSci? A spot where you are likely to end up with an academy? Or just any city that has a library and might need that extra hammer abit more?

    I really like how you have placed cottages on some plains tiles too, I understand that every city should be able to contribute commerce and it's not a horrid way to diverge surplus food either.
    Lots of accepted wisdom that I still have to unlearn it seems.
     
  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Just in case someone else had missed some barb-galley mechanics I found this:


    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/question-concerning-barbarian-galleys.330680/
    I wasn't aware of 2. and wasn't 100% sure of 1.
     
  19. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    Not ridiculous if you can chop it early, but I don't think I'd bother.
    Anywhere that has a science multiplier. Academy city if you're planning on one. I settled it in the 2nd city as I got a late capital library and had no plans for an academy.
     
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  20. Zelus

    Zelus Chieftain

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    Hello Rusten

    I've read people talk about Bulbing versus Academy several times or even golden age sometimes, but settling the great scientist never appeared to be even considered. Is there something special with isolation that suddenly makes it more appealing, or is it just something you think is underrated ?
     

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