Deny, Defend, Depose

[warpus]

I don't condone violence but I can't sit here and say I don't understand why this happened or why so many are choosing to see this guy as a hero.

There is class warfare going on between the rich and the poor in the U.S. and the poor have been getting it up the butt each and every time. So when the tables are turned.. and this happens to somebody so vile.. of course many are going to see the shooter as a hero.

That this is the only recourse the lower classes in the U.S. have is depressing.. but hey at least it is so easy for them to get access to guns. So at least they have something

 

[Gorbles]

I don't need to know the ins and outs of their policies to believe that cold-bloodedly shooting someone in the street is morally reprehensible. Even if he's guilty of what you claim, there's this thing called "due process".

What due process exists and how might it be achieved? What concrete examples do we have to evidence your theory that due process is workable?

And if you even have any, how do you plan to convince people with this evidence as their friends and family members die or are forcibly dispossessed because they ran out of money for medical repayments?

 

[Estebonrober]

What has been tried? Lawsuits? Journalistic exposes? Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent and degrades both the person doing it and the society which permits it.

I mean I directly and immediately recall multiple congressional hearings about healthcare and healthcare reform exposing insanely violent and hateful behaviors for all to see by these companies and nothing changed. I'll find links for ya, lawsuits are only a symptom of the problem and not a solution to the problem itself (the existence of a for-profit private health insurance industry that has helped legalize bribery in the US)

One case (of tens of thousands annually and millions over jsut a few years), that immediately illicit legitimate emotions for violence...

I hear similar stories every week (not involving kids tho which is markedly worse behavior)

Violence sadly remains the only way to force true change past the elite of any given time or location. I want that to change, I want us to do "land reform" without the violence when the bills come due, but that has not been our history thus far, and in my current melancholy I do not believe that will change until a "catastrophe" forces us to change, and we might be lucky not to be extinct after said catastrophe.

 

[Senethro]

Life is not a game. If you play to win, trap the other guy in the corner and sweep all his pieces from the board, the difference is they can't just walk away and come back and play the next day.

So don't play to win hard and always hand out runner up prizes. This isn't difficult to understand or novel in our history.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I don't need to know the ins and outs of their policies to believe that cold-bloodedly shooting someone in the street is morally reprehensible. Even if he's guilty of what you claim, there's this thing called "due process".

Glad he's gone, hth

 

[Estebonrober]

Senators Warren, Markey Introduce the Corporate Crimes Against Health Care Act of 2024 | U.S. Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts

The Official U.S. Senate website of Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts

www.warren.senate.gov

Senate Committee Holds Hearing re: Medicare Advantage Denials and Delays in Care - Center for Medicare Advocacy

Senate hearing, House Committee presses major insurer, Ady Barkan on the harms of privatized Medicare, and more.

medicareadvocacy.org

*for non-US citizens, Medicare advantage is a private health insurance program that supplements the holes in Medicare itself...this market should have never been allowed to exist*

Congressional Committee, Regulators Question Cigna System That Lets Its Doctors Deny Claims Without Reading Patient Files

The probes follow an investigation by ProPublica and The Capitol Forum that Cigna allows its doctors to reject hundreds of thousands of claims a month.

www.propublica.org

Rep. Porter Reintroduces Bill to Help Patients Hold Insurers Accountable

porter.house.gov

https://porter.house.gov/news/documentquery.aspx?IssueID=14895

Health Insurers Have Been Breaking State Laws for Years

States have passed hundreds of laws to protect people from wrongful insurance denials. Yet from emergency services to fertility preservation, insurers still say no.

www.propublica.org

A Doctor at Cigna Said Her Bosses Pressured Her to Review Patients’ Cases Too Quickly. Cigna Threatened to Fire Her.

Cigna tracks every minute that its staff doctors spend deciding whether to pay for health care. Dr. Debby Day said her bosses cared more about being fast than being right: “Deny, deny, deny. That’s how you hit your numbers,” Day said.

www.propublica.org

Inside the Company Helping America’s Biggest Health Insurers Deny Coverage for Treatments

When companies like Aetna or UnitedHealthcare want to rein in costs, they turn to EviCore, whose business model depends on turning down payments for care recommended by doctors for their patients.

www.propublica.org

I can go on and on and on... I tried to stick to congress and the great journalism outfit (atm) that is ProPublica

 

[GenMarshall]

I don't need to know the ins and outs of their policies to believe that cold-bloodedly shooting someone in the street is morally reprehensible. Even if he's guilty of what you claim, there's this thing called "due process".

Exactly. It doesn’t Even if the CEO has enacted boneheaded policies, it doesn’t give the excuse to resort to cold-blooded murder with hundreds, perhaps thousands of eyewitnesses in broad daylight.

All I know, is the criminal who killed the CEO tossed his life away in exchange for life in prison or the death penalty. In exchange for what? The short term gain is you’ve “eaten the rich”. Long term, I wouldn’t be suprised if CEOs, upper executives, get their own private security detail and bodyguards as a result of this.

I'm not sure you understand America and what its police force is for... if they find this guy they will find a way to kill him to send the message.

That’s not going to happen. Provided the criminal doesn’t resist arrest that leads to a shoot out, he’s just going to get arrested and taken to court for trial. Again, there are laws against murder, even if the victim of said murder is a CEO.

Violence sadly remains the only way to force true change past the elite of any given time or location.

If your idea of a “revolution” involves the celebration of violence with vigilante justice, count me out. If you want to make changes, you work within the system. Not acting like Bolsheviks in 1917 Russia or storming the Bastille

 

[Gorbles]

It doesn’t Even if the CEO has enacted boneheaded policies

They're not boneheaded. They're incredibly, specifically, intentionally designed for specific outcomes. Your should be criticising them at least as much as the single death, if not moreso.

And yet despite the way you manage to insert "the Bolsheviks" into what feels like every post, I don't think you will. Outcomes that result in mass deaths are only bad if they can be attributed to non-US root causes, eh.

 

[Estebonrober]

Exactly. It doesn’t Even if the CEO has enacted boneheaded policies, it doesn’t give the excuse to resort to cold-blooded murder with hundreds, perhaps thousands of eyewitnesses in broad daylight.

All I know, is the criminal who killed the CEO tossed his life away in exchange for life in prison or the death penalty. In exchange for what? The short term gain is you’ve “eaten the rich”. Long term, I wouldn’t be suprised if CEOs, upper executives, get their own private security detail and bodyguards as a result of this.

That’s not going to happen. Provided the criminal doesn’t resist arrest that leads to a shoot out, he’s just going to get arrested and taken to court for trial. Again, there are laws against murder, even if the victim of said murder is a CEO.

If your idea of a “revolution” involves the celebration of violence with vigilante justice, count me out. If you want to make changes, you work within the system. Not acting like Bolsheviks in 1917 Russia or storming the Bastille

um have you not been paying attention to how this police state treats leftists? hails of gunfire, ten-year sentences for twitter posts, swat teams rofl stomping scientists protesting BofA ... I mean this government has a long long storied history of ruining even moderately (global view) leftist people.

I'm not a fan of revolution (my point is addressing the grievances way before the issue got this bad would be great tyvm), but by definition it is a celebration of violence and vigilante justice (great terror comes to mind)

This system requires destruction. Its broken, the sooner the rest of my fellow Americans realize it the better. Since I would argue that the Trump vote is accelerationist in one form or another, I think people are beginning to realize it.

If your idea of a “revolution” involves the celebration of violence with vigilante justice, count me out. If you want to make changes, you work within the system. Not acting like Bolsheviks in 1917 Russia or storming the Bastille

You know in both cases they tried reform oer and over again and only got stonewalled for decades (in both cases)

 

[warpus]

If you want to make changes, you work within the system.

How? It hasn't worked in the last 50-100 years. When will the U.S. get universal healthcare? Never?

I'm not justifying what this guy did, but the lower classes in the U.S. have no other options, it seems. The system is stacked against them. Of course some of them will occasionally lash out.

Are we surprised that some rich people got their heads chopped off during the French revolution? I hope not.

 

[Farm Boy]

Accelerationism is a really boring way of giving up on being a decent person. It even cedes personal agency.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Accelerationism is a really boring way of giving up on being a decent person. It even cedes personal agency.

Thanks for the insight dude, got any practical advice beyond this?

 

[GenMarshall]

They're not boneheaded. They're incredibly, specifically, intentionally designed for specific outcomes. Your should be criticising them at least as much as the single death, if not moreso.

And yet despite the way you manage to insert "the Bolsheviks" into what feels like every post, I don't think you will.

Don’t be condescending Gorbles. Is calling the policies “bonehead” not sufficient enough to criticize them?

It’s blatantly clear that I am criticizing the policies even if you don’t see it or don’t agree with my wordage. But oh well, .

 

[Gorbles]

Don’t be condescending Gorbles. Is calling the policies “bonehead” not sufficient enough to criticize them?

Not really. I don't see you calling the killing of the CEO boneheaded, do you?

Plus, like I said, it wasn't even accurate to describe intentional policy as "boneheaded".

Therefore, no, it isn't blatantly clear at all. It's blatantly one-sided, but I don't think that's what you meant.

As for your "condescension", allow me to quote this very serious and not at all condescending advice of your own:

If you want to make changes, you work within the system. Not acting like Bolsheviks in 1917 Russia or storming the Bastille

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Don’t be condescending Gorbles. Is calling the policies “bonehead” not sufficient enough to criticize them?

It’s blatantly clear that I am criticizing the policies even if you don’t see it or don’t agree with my wordage. But oh well, .

The policies are directly resulting in people's deaths, thousands and you don't seem to care, you're more interested in defending the scumbag who got shot

 

[Estebonrober]

Accelerationism is a really boring way of giving up on being a decent person. It even cedes personal agency.

I'm not sure about the agency part, but I've been on your side of that particular debate. My point was more about how most trump voters want to see the system fail. They believe its all corrupt, they are right even if they are wrong about solutions.

 

[Lexicus]

Thanks for the insight dude, got any practical advice beyond this?

That's the same guy who defended the Bundy crew when they occupied the wildlife reserve, lmao

 

[GenMarshall]

The policies are directly resulting in people's deaths, thousands and you don't seem to care, you're more interested in defending the scumbag who got shot

Where, where in my post am I defending the CEO?

No where in my post did I defended the CEO and you're just jumping to conclusions. I find it quite a stretch that you'd think I'm defending the CEO when in reality I am siding with the law and that I do not condone the actions the suspect has done. It's quite disingenuous to jump to the conclusion that I am "defending" the CEO and assuming that I don't care about the harm the policies have done when I have clearly made my statements known by calling them boneheaded. I'm sorry that my choice of vocabulary doesn't appeal to you or Gobels and I'm sorry that I do not have the righteous rage and fury to grab a torch and pitchfork and march down the street .

um have you not been paying attention to how this police state treats leftists? hails of gunfire, ten-year sentences for twitter posts, swat teams rofl stomping scientists protesting BofA ... I mean this government has a long long storied history of ruining even moderately (global view) leftist people.

Last I checked, Bernie Sanders and AoC haven't been locked up. Hassan is still running his mouth on Twitch and the feds haven't swatted his house.

I'm not a fan of revolution (my point is addressing the grievances way before the issue got this bad would be great tyvm), but by definition it is a celebration of violence and vigilante justice (great terror comes to mind)

And that disturbs me greatly that it comes to a celebration of vigilante violence. I've already told Cloud that I do not condone the actions the suspect has done, but it doesn't erase the fact that he broke the law and tossed his life away to be in life imprisonment or death row (Depending on the judge's decision when the suspect is on trial). The suspect's politics does not matter to me. If he were a Trumpist, I'd still be condemning him.

This system requires destruction. Its broken, the sooner the rest of my fellow Americans realize it the better. Since I would argue that the Trump vote is accelerationist in one form or another, I think people are beginning to realize it.

I'm afraid this is where we disagree on things. I perfer the reformist approach than taking a sledge hammer to destroy the system that would make everything a hundred times worse and leaving open a power vaccum letting power hungry opportunists taking over (e.g. as happened with the USSR, China, and the rest of the authoritarian communist states). I do not wish for my life and other people's lives to be upended when the system gets destroyed. If you asked me, say ten years ago when I was underemployed. Call me naive and a soyboy (ironic that I've gotten that from trumpists) for being a dirty SocDem, I'd rather march side to side with the likes of Bernie Sanders and AoC and push for change on the floor of the legislature than resorting to vigilantie justice and destroying the system that would put me in a worst off position.

 

[Farm Boy]

Thanks for the insight dude, got any practical advice beyond this?

It's an argument to snatch rhetorical defeat out of a rhetorically advantageous setup?

Just tracking along with, but all we do is talk here, so that's the scope I have to work with. For practical advice.

 

[PhroX]

"The law" that some people here seem to love so much allowed this CEO to get away with killing thousands of people purely to add another zero to his bank account.