Do US Republicans want a failed state?

[Patine]

First you post: and then when you get your list, you immediately decide that "Republican Christians" has a special, previously unstated, meaning that no one can live up anyway.

Nonetheless those on my list have stated evangelical beliefs that are influencing policy and law. You asked for a list of politically important Republican Christians. I posted one. So now you try to move the goal posts by redefining "Republican Christians" to protect you "being right".

Pence qualifies too and needs to be on the list.

They may have "stated evangelical beliefs that are influencing policy and law," but they do not live by the Ministry of Christ or the Apostles, or encourage true Christian behaviour or sentiment. They "talk the talk," but they do not "walk the walk." Thus - and especially given their political and social visible platform and influence - they are "wolves in sheep's clothing."

And my "goal posts," have nothing at all to with political party membership. Ian Paisley, Fred Niles, and many other non-Americans (and thus non-GOP) in a similar boat in rhetoric and behaviour are just the same. Political party and nationality are completely irrelevant in this kind judgement.

 

[cardgame]

As someone that regularly associates with a lot of conservatives - gun nuts, Christians, businessy folk, rednecks, and so on, I not only disagree with you but consider my opinion more grounded in fact than yours. Certainly you've had all sorts of negative experiences, but I suspect folks' motivations are more negligent than malicious in most cases, and probably in more than a few cases are only reflecting your blatant disdain if not hatred for them.

What if he doesn't have an issue with locking up white children either? What if he really doesn't want to lock anyone up, but figures it is worth it to not fight it because it enables some other completely-unrelated-to-race-or-hatred-generally policy he favors?

I think there's a good analogy from here to all cops are bastards. Yes, there are good cops who don't shoot unarmed people but the thin blue line is not crossed under any circumstances and anti-corruption cops do not survive in the force. *some of those that work forces*

If the 'negligent' cops give a pass to the truly evil cops who murder and terrorize, are there really any "good cops"? Same logic applies to your 'negligent' bigots. If they're OK with not only bigoted rhetoric, which would be one thing if it gets out the vote to pass policies you care about, (bad but justifiable internally) but also OK with bigoted legislation and policies in fact, what's the difference between them and a malicious bigot?

At the risk of overburdening you with another analogy, it's just like using the gamer word in online multiplayer video games. There's no such thing as ironic racism.

I see your point but I see Cloud's too.

 

[IglooDame]

I don't believe you're omniscient concerning yourself. Indeed, your claim that you are not ignorant of anything is impossible to take seriously.

The ignorance of "anything" referred to CloudStrife's "this", referring to, I think, general current events and what US political leadership is doing and has done over the last few decades. In that respect, I'm not ignorant.

Your votes, as well as others who vote for them, enable the GOP to do ghoulish things that result in measurable suffering and deaths, that's not my opinion that's demonstrable fact.

Why don't you take some responsibility, like your party is supposedly all about, and acknowledge your part in the ongoing suffering caused by them.

But just to repeat myself, you vote for a party that has condemned generations of the LGBTQ community to preventable suffering and death so i invite you, perhaps not for the first time, to take a step to the side and acknowledge your part in perpetuating this and if you can't do that then you shouldn't really expect anything less than naked hostility because you're not showing any contrition or desire to think about the ramifications of your actions.

But... if you want to sit there and claim that republican voters have no complicity wrt enabling some of the awful things their party has done, then i don't really see a point in this conversation continuing, I don't argue with people that deny basic reality. It's a matter of historical fact and reality that the GOP's actions, policies, agendas etc, have led to people dying that could have otherwise survived, had they perhaps not been LGBTQ or non-white.

You're moving the goalposts. Again. You've claimed anyone that votes Republican is a hateful racist, on the basis of what Republican leadership (McConnell was the specific example) has done or permitted. In doing so, you're effectively, again, claiming that I am a racist. Maybe you're just using an uncommonly broad definition of racist and haven't bothered to say so. But since your opinion is so colored by hatred, I'm going to try hard to ignore it going forward.

 

[IglooDame]

They may have "stated evangelical beliefs that are influencing policy and law," but they do not live by the Ministry of Christ or the Apostles, or encourage true Christian behaviour or sentiment. They "talk the talk," but they do not "walk the walk." Thus - and especially given their political and social visible platform and influence - they are "wolves in sheep's clothing."

And my "goal posts," have nothing at all to with political party membership. Ian Paisley, Fred Niles, and many other non-Americans (and thus non-GOP) in a similar boat in rhetoric and behaviour are just the same. Political party and nationality are completely irrelevant in this kind judgement.

You're in True Scotsman territory here.

 

[IglooDame]

I think there's a good analogy from here to all cops are bastards. Yes, there are good cops who don't shoot unarmed people but the thin blue line is not crossed under any circumstances and anti-corruption cops do not survive in the force. *some of those that work forces*

If the 'negligent' cops give a pass to the truly evil cops who murder and terrorize, are there really any "good cops"? Same logic applies to your 'negligent' bigots. If they're OK with not only bigoted rhetoric, which would be one thing if it gets out the vote to pass policies you care about, (bad but justifiable internally) but also OK with bigoted legislation and policies in fact, what's the difference between them and a malicious bigot?

At the risk of overburdening you with another analogy, it's just like using the gamer word in online multiplayer video games. There's no such thing as ironic racism.

I see your point but I see Cloud's too.

I don't know what you mean by "gamer word". That aside, thank you for stating the idea more coherently.

Set aside the "truly evil cops". Claiming that all cops are bad cops because they (as a group) allow corruption, when their higher purpose is to promote a safe and civil neighborhood and society, and they're typically successful in that, is not doing anyone any good. It is, in effect, pushing them toward the truly evil cops.

I suppose what I'm truly objecting to is lumping everyone together despite widely varying motives and intents, especially when it results in pulling everyone down to the most evil common denominator, and then hating them because of it. If one insists on everything being black and white, of course one is going to find a whole lotta black.

 

[cardgame]

I dunno, there's room for interpretation and being a different kind of Scotsman, but when you go DIRECTLY AGAINST EVERYTHING SCOTS ARE ABOUT, maybe you really aren't a scotsman.

 

[Patine]

You're in True Scotsman territory here.

In this regard, I stand by true faith in my religion, which is highly misunderstood and poorly practiced in the modern day, despite, on paper, being the largest in statistical following in the world. I follow the religion of love, life, peace, and forgiveness that Christianity is, and rebuke the parasitic cult of hate, death, war, and greed that moves to eclipse it and try to take it's place. If this truly offends you, or anyone else, it shows where your own convictions lay, I'm afraid...

 

[Patine]

I dunno, there's room for interpretation and being a different kind of Scotsman, but when you go DIRECTLY AGAINST EVERYTHING SCOTS ARE ABOUT, maybe you really aren't a scotsman.

Is that post directed at @IglooDude or myself? I'm unclear.

 

[Birdjaguar]

They may have "stated evangelical beliefs that are influencing policy and law," but they do not live by the Ministry of Christ or the Apostles, or encourage true Christian behaviour or sentiment. They "talk the talk," but they do not "walk the walk." Thus - and especially given their political and social visible platform and influence - they are "wolves in sheep's clothing."

And my "goal posts," have nothing at all to with political party membership... Political party and nationality are completely irrelevant in this kind judgement.

So, Pence doesn't walk the walk? You raised the issue using the term "Republican Christians" and now you are saying that politics are irrelevant. And BTW, over a billion fellow Christian folks from all around the world would likely disagree with whatever brand of Christianity you are peddling. For a Christian who knows what's true and what is not, you appear pretty judgmental about other Christians.

 

[Lexicus]

I suppose what I'm truly objecting to is lumping everyone together despite widely varying motives and intents, especially when it results in pulling everyone down to the most evil common denominator, and then hating them because of it. If one insists on everything being black and white, of course one is going to find a whole lotta black.

Yeah, that's why I'm skipping the "motives and intents" and just going to the actions part. I'm lumping people together based on the actions they take which lead to concretely racist, sexist, etc. outcomes.

 

[cardgame]

It's good to show them the evidence that links their actions to those outcomes though, or they just think you're one of those strawmen they heard about on fox news/facebook who calls everyone they disagree with a nazi.

Most of them (most people, anywhere) are ignorant and unmotivated to change that.

I don't think you or Cloud are wrong about this but I am starting to think there's a more productive way to do this than most seem to have tried. Of course to get productivity out you have to put more effort in and that can be difficult, with so many trumpets arguing in bad faith.. really not even worth the effort 9/10

 

[Zardnaar]

It's good to show them the evidence that links their actions to those outcomes though, or they just think you're one of those strawmen they heard about on fox news/facebook who calls everyone they disagree with a nazi.

Most of them (most people, anywhere) are ignorant and unmotivated to change that.

I don't think you or Cloud are wrong about this but I am starting to think there's a more productive way to do this than most seem to have tried. Of course to get productivity out you have to put more effort in and that can be difficult, with so many trumpets arguing in bad faith.. really not even worth the effort 9/10

This has basically been my arguements for a long time.

If you lecture and berate people they dig in deeper.

You can't change the hard core GoP but there's few who can switch or just stay at home. They might fail a putriy test but there's not enough of the devoted on each side to carry an election.

Top down social engineering doesn't work.

 

[Lexicus]

It's good to show them the evidence that links their actions to those outcomes though, or they just think you're one of those strawmen they heard about on fox news/facebook who calls everyone they disagree with a nazi.

I've been trying that for more than ten years. In that time I've learned that perhaps the greatest of humanity's capacities is our capacity for self-deception.

I don't think you or Cloud are wrong about this but I am starting to think there's a more productive way to do this than most seem to have tried. Of course to get productivity out you have to put more effort in and that can be difficult, with so many trumpets arguing in bad faith.. really not even worth the effort 9/10

I'm long past the point of trying to convince Republicans of anything. We have to just try to limit the damage they can do.

 

[cardgame]

I'm still open to convincing them if they're under 25, but yeah that sounds pretty unarguable post-trump

 

[Patine]

So, Pence doesn't walk the walk? You raised the issue using the term "Republican Christians" and now you are saying that politics are irrelevant. And BTW, over a billion fellow Christian folks from all around the world would likely disagree with whatever brand of Christianity you are peddling. For a Christian who knows what's true and what is not, you appear pretty judgmental about other Christians.

You're obviously not at all religious yourself - or at least you don't come across as such, or at least strongly such - and thus you talking down to me for my own religious convictions, and my lack of artificially-enforced, expected, agnostically-viewed ecumenicalism is derided by you, along with the fact that I don't regard these despicable monsters as even being Christian, because they completely ignore, or even act in complete anathema and antithesis, to Christ's Ministry, and use the false label of being "Christian," for ulterior motives and deception. And I'm supposed to view these cultists and purveyors of mockery of my religion as full fellows of my religion, and give them respect as such? That bespeaks of a lack of any strong religious conviction or belief by you. And, accusing me - twice - of my views here being solely limited and contained to a single political party in one country, just by trying to disingenuously hang me to the original question, is a transparent and clumsy blunder of a rhetorical trap by deception.

 

[Farm Boy]

There are good cops. Full stop. There are good firefighters. Full stop. There are rapist social workers full stop. Unless you're going for the religious "my fault, my fault, my most grievous fault" take, which is hilarious to have to rediscover here and I approve of it, then blow me for reals.

 

[Lexicus]

I'm still open to convincing them if they're under 25, but yeah that sounds pretty unarguable post-trump

In my experience the ones under 25 are the worst of the bunch, outright Nazis and filth.

 

[Patine]

outright Nazis and filth.

Less than 1% of Americans are ideologically Nazis. You and a few others on these forums insist on keeping on with this disingenuous (and socially destructive) mislabelling of people into extreme far-right labels with massive historical baggage - greatly over-labelling into portraying massive Fascist legions in the U.S. and a true, died-in-the-wool, ideologically Fascist government in power - in same way, and with the same disingenuous irresponsibility that people like Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, and Ann Coulter called every significant Democratic politician and their public, visible supporters, outright, full-out Communists. You really should can that bad habit.

 

[Berzerker]

us & them

 

[Patine]

us & them

Divide & Conquer. The Conqueror is just patiently waiting anonymously...

How else can one defeat a hyperpower...