Do we have free will? Is the world indeterministic?

Tahuti

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After giving these subjects a thought, I find those ideas increasingly unlikely. You might just as well say that, rather that we have free choice, are choices are made by processes in our brain set off by our peers and our environment. Moreover, how likely is it that things occur purely randomly? If you throw a ball it'll inevitably lose attitude because of factors that exist outside and before this event, so why would there be a possibility of deviation from any of this?

Please, discuss.
 
Yes there is free will. It is largely deterministic. Free will is when a conscious mind makes choices not externally forced upon it.

The problem is that we cannot even choose what we want. Everything we want to do is in some way forced upon us, either by our peers, our environment or precedents set in our own memories.
 
Choices are never really "made", they just happen. That choices exist is an illusion.

That said, it's important to note that free will as objectively existing is completely irrelevant since it only illudes as a subjective idea to its subject. Even if you are unable to choose, you still believe you are and can never experience "not having free will". Your illusion will be truer to you than what really happens and that will never change. And there's no problem with that. :)
 
I think much of the confusion around the existence of free stems an inability to interpret modality properly. To wit, the important condition regarding whether one's choice was free is the counterfactual 'one could have chosen otherwise'. Everyone, more or less, thinks that if this condition is satisfactorily met one makes free choices.

As I said, this is a modal conditions. Modal language is often about things that could have happened but didn't, or things which happened because they must happen. Words like 'could', 'would' and 'must' are paradigmatically modal. We might say, for instance, that if America hadn't joined the second world war then Germany could have won but it would not have. Throughout, it must be that Germany either win or not win. 'Must' expresses a necessity whereas 'could' and would' express possibilities of differing levels of probability. Analytic philosophers nowadays like to express modality in terms of possible worlds; Roughly, something must be the case if it happens in all possible worlds, could be the case if it happens in at least one possible worlds and would be the case if it happens in close possible worlds (worlds close to the actual world that is - our world).

So hopefully we understand the territory in which we are operating. The problem with the 'One could do otherwise' condition, then, is that it seems there is no possible world in which one is exactly the same as one is now and did otherwise. At least, not if we keep the universe deterministic. The incompatibilist -the person who thinks free will is incompatible with determinism- thinks this is problematic. They think that the 'one could do otherwise' condition must be interpreted such that we keep facts about one totally fixed. The question 'Could I have chosen the toffee ice-cream?' cannot be answered by looking at a world in which I like toffee, given I actually like strawberry ice-cream. To deny that a choice like this over my icecream is free one must interpret the counterfactual condition in at least this restrictive way.

In fact, one must interpret it more restrictively. I could have chosen toffee ice-cream if there had been no strawberry ice-cream on offer. In this case, my preference for strawberry wouldn't have mattered. So the incompatibilist can't just keep fact about us fixed when deciding if we could have chosen otherwise. The incompatibilist must also keep facts about the rest of the world fixed. The incompatibilist must evaluate the 'could' in the counterfactual condition as only referring to what happens in a world exactly like ours in which we are exactly as we are (now). But this world is really just our own world. In that case, the incompatibilist can clearly show why the counterfactual conditions can't be met; it demands that we be able to do otherwise then we do in the actual world in that very same world. This is clearly impossible. One can't do other than one does in the actual world in the actual world. Concurrently, of course, the incompatibilist in committed to the idea that every claim of possibility -every statement in which it is claimed that something could occur- is a contradiction. Because how they interpret 'could' no such claim could be true.

As you may have noticed, on this interpretation of possibility the incompatibilists argument goes through perfectly well. But, you will also have noticed, we have not a shred of reason to take this interpretation seriously. That it makes all talk of possibilities incoherent is a straight up reductio. Such talk isn't incoherent. The incompatibilist has got deeply confused by what 'could' means. It does not range just over the actual world, it ranges over some (if not all) possible worlds. And in this case free will is perfectly compatible with determinism. The world can be as deterministic as it like, but it is still the case that if I liked Toffee ice-cream I would choose it over strawberry icecream. The counterfactual condition is met and I am therefore making free choices. The key is to realize that the counterfactual 'could one do otherwise' ranges over possibile worlds in which one is differently constituted. It concerns worlds in which one wants different things. And, if one does do otherwise in these worlds, one is a free chooser.
 
This troubled me a long time ago. I forgot what was my conclusion. Depends on whether quantum effects can occur and influence the brain on the lowest level I think. Smarter minds than mine are dealing with this.
 
The idea that free will does not exist is advanced by Satan. If he can convince you of that then he can convince you that you are not really responsible for your actions. Then, he has you.
 
The idea that free will does not exist is advanced by Satan. If he can convince you of that then he can convince you that you are not really responsible for your actions. Then, he has you.

In a world without free will, a murderer will still be jailed.
 
The problem is that we cannot even choose what we want. Everything we want to do is in some way forced upon us, either by our peers, our environment or precedents set in our own memories.
You cannot entirely control what you want, but what you want is internal to you, and therefore not a limitation on will.

If your pears make you do something, that's a limit of freedom. If your pears persuade you to do something, that's free will.
The idea that free will does not exist is advanced by Satan. If he can convince you of that then he can convince you that you are not really responsible for your actions. Then, he has you.

Even among people who claim free will does not exist, I have not met someone who claimed people are not responsible for their actions.
 
Choices are never really "made", they just happen. That choices exist is an illusion.

That said, it's important to note that free will as objectively existing is completely irrelevant since it only illudes as a subjective idea to its subject. Even if you are unable to choose, you still believe you are and can never experience "not having free will". Your illusion will be truer to you than what really happens and that will never change. And there's no problem with that. :)

This is exactly the way I see it as well. My view was heavily influenced by a series of blog posts I came across a couple of years ago. I know I've linked to them on CFC before, but in case anyone is willing to take the 30 to 45 minutes necessary to go through them all, here they are:
http://blog.case.edu/singham/free_will/index

They are listed in reverse chronological order, so take care to read them in ascending titular order - from the bottom of the page to the top. A little clumsy, but I think the time spent on this will greatly add to the discussion here. And I especially encourage those of you who hold to a hard "Free Will is God's Gift To Man" position to read it very carefully and ask lots of questions ;)
 
[citation needed]

2 Corinthians 11:3 (1611 King James Bible)

But I feare lest by any meanes, as the Serpent beguiled Eue through his subtilty, so your mindes should bee corrupted from the simplicitie that is in Christ.
 
This is exactly the way I see it as well. My view was heavily influenced by a series of blog posts I came across a couple of years ago. I know I've linked to them on CFC before, but in case anyone is willing to take the 30 to 45 minutes necessary to go through them all, here they are:
http://blog.case.edu/singham/free_will/index

They are listed in reverse chronological order, so take care to read them in ascending titular order - from the bottom of the page to the top. A little clumsy, but I think the time spent on this will greatly add to the discussion here. And I especially encourage those of you who hold to a hard "Free Will is God's Gift To Man" position to read it very carefully and ask lots of questions ;)

Tsk! Do I have to? You don't half make me work hard, you people. If it's not one thing it's another.

When will this madness end?
 
Choices are never really "made", they just happen. That choices exist is an illusion.

I'm not pretending I can prove it, and I'm certainly not going to attempt to call it science or anything, but I deeply share the same suspicion.
 
Choices are never really "made", they just happen. That choices exist is an illusion.

This. Though from a practical point of view, owing to our inability to measure a current state of the mind/brain, the illusion is so complete that it really doesn't make a difference.
 
Yes there is free will. It is largely deterministic. Free will is when a conscious mind makes choices not externally forced upon it.

This. The basic physics may be deterministic (see: multiple worlds interpretation of QM; alternately see: David Bohm's theory) or indeterministic (see: Copenhagen QM). But human action is largely deterministic. And that's a good thing. It helps us be free. Randomness only gets in the way of choice.

The incompatibilist -the person who thinks free will is incompatible with determinism- thinks this is problematic. [...]

In fact, one must interpret it more restrictively. I could have chosen toffee ice-cream if there had been no strawberry ice-cream on offer. In this case, my preference for strawberry wouldn't have mattered. So the incompatibilist can't just keep fact about us fixed when deciding if we could have chosen otherwise. The incompatibilist must also keep facts about the rest of the world fixed. The incompatibilist must evaluate the 'could' in the counterfactual condition as only referring to what happens in a world exactly like ours in which we are exactly as we are (now).

They have a way out of your argument - dunno if it's a good way. They would say that only the facts about the past have to be kept fixed. So they're not committed to the idea that every statement "X could have done Y but didn't" is contradictory.

The problem with this way out, is that it's not clear that it's well motivated. The fact that it avoids lovett's argument is not really a reason in its favor. And there is plenty of reason against it:

Chemists say that salt is soluble. That means, it could dissolve in water, even if there is no water around at the time. It doesn't matter whether the salt exists in a probabilistic environment, where there might be water at any moment, or in a deterministic environment that's just plain dry. The salt is still soluble either way.
 
This is exactly the way I see it as well. My view was heavily influenced by a series of blog posts I came across a couple of years ago. I know I've linked to them on CFC before, but in case anyone is willing to take the 30 to 45 minutes necessary to go through them all, here they are:
http://blog.case.edu/singham/free_will/index

I read up until the mention of Libet (and a little beyond). Libet's experiments don't show what he thinks they show. Al Mele explains why not.
 
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