Do we need to pledge of alliegence in the U.S? Should it be modified?

[Little Raven]

Incorrect. A majority of the USA wanted segregation banned. Only a few states in the South disagreed with that. They most certainly were not a majority.

Uh...I hate to pile on here, MB, but at the time of Brown vs. Board of Education, 17 states mandated segregation in education, while only 16 prohibited it. (4 had more limited segregation, and 11 had no statewide legislation, giving local authorities wide leeway)

But I'm sure you knew that.

 

[MobBoss]

Bottom line here is that christians shouldn't be upset about it: separation of church and state should guarantee that state institutions are secular, or at least blind to differences in faith. I don't think it's reasonable to keep in something potentially important because a large segment of society has an unreasonable expectation of thier government to preserve something of this nature. Again, this is only how I feel, and life isn't fair

The point is christians should be upset over it if it is now changed. It has been that way for over 50 years. Changing it now would be seen as a slap in the face of Christians all across america. It is now part of our history and our heritage...just like the words 'in god we trust' are on our currency. All the various lawsuits trying to get such things removed have all failed. So why change it now?

But that might be changing. Can the current status quo handle the possibility of an america where christinas are not an overwhelming majority?

Since the last several demographic studies have shown most christian families have more kids than non-christian households, I dont think thats going to be an issue for a very, very, VERY, long time. Most certainly not in our lifetimes to be sure.

 

[IglooDame]

Psst. It is in such documents like the 'declaration of independence' and other very important documents in the formation of our country.

Sure, but you said "Draw up your constitution and bill of rights utterly devoid of God what-so-ever and be happy." Far be it from me to point out that what you stated was factually incorrect, given how often you feel compelled to point it out to others.

Trying to ignore that fact is just silly.

Declaration of Independence. Check. Which part of the Bill of Rights references "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" again? And what other "very important documents in the formation of our country" please?

What is silly is comparing a non-binding document intended to whip up and motivate the general population to a document intended to be anything but rhetorical, stating the structure, powers, and limitations of our government.

 

[MobBoss]

Uh...I hate to pile on here, MB, but at the time of Brown vs. Board of Education, 17 states mandated segregation in education, while only 16 prohibited it. (4 had more limited segregation, and 11 had no statewide legislation, giving local authorities wide leeway)

But I'm sure you knew that.

By all means list the states out by population and then tell me a majority of americans were against segregation. I dont think thats the case at all, and would be interested in such analysis.

 

[Little Raven]

By all means list the states out by population and then tell me a majority of americans were against segregation. I dont think thats the case at all, and would be interested in such analysis.

In order to figure out where a majority of American's stood, you'd have to rely on polling data, and I know how you feel about that.

I was mostly taking issue with your claim that 'only a few states in the South disagreed.' Granted, most states that disagreed were in the South, but 17 is more than 'a few.'

 

[MobBoss]

Sure, but you said "Draw up your constitution and bill of rights utterly devoid of God what-so-ever and be happy." Far be it from me to point out that what you stated was factually incorrect, given how often you feel compelled to point it out to others.

Rofl, ok, whatever, then I stand corrected and you get a cookie. Feel free to change my sentence to 'draw up your founding documents' or something else equally broad in the spirit of clarification. I think you get my meaning.

Declaration of Independence. Check. Which part of the Bill of Rights references "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" again? And what other "very important documents in the formation of our country" please?

The LLPOH is in the declaration as you well know. Are you actually trying to deny the impact that religion (ie. mainly christianity) has had upon our nation in all its history?

 

[MobBoss]

In order to figure out where a majority of American's stood, you'd have to rely on polling data, and I know how you feel about that.

I was mostly taking issue with your claim that 'only a few states in the South disagreed.' Granted, most states that disagreed were in the South, but 17 is more than 'a few.'

I think we both can agree that 17 is more than a few, but is no where near a majority.

My, we are being anal today arent we. Going to have to remember to cross my Ts and dot my Is from now on I guess.

 

[IglooDame]

The LLPOH is in the declaration as you well know. Are you actually trying to deny the impact that religion (ie. mainly christianity) has had upon our nation in all its history?

On the contrary, I'm simply attempting to correct your apparent refusal to acknowledge that freedom of religion is one of the essential elements of our country, and thus having the government inject a belief in God into something it mandates all children hear (if not speak) at school every day is contrary to that.

 

[IglooDame]

My, we are being anal today arent we. Going to have to remember to cross my Ts and dot my Is from now on I guess.

Given how readily you correct people for similar sorts of things, I just see it as karma kicking in.

 

[MobBoss]

On the contrary, I'm simply attempting to correct your apparent refusal to acknowledge that freedom of religion is one of the essential elements of our country, and thus having the government inject a belief in God into something it mandates all children hear (if not speak) at school every day is contrary to that.

Do you not find "god" an ambiguous enough title as to avoid an establishment of religion? I do think the SCOTUS did, didnt they?

Given how readily you correct people for similar sorts of things, I just see it as karma kicking in.

Dont get me wrong...I dont mind it at all. In fact, I welcome it....I have always been a big believer in clarity of communication......

 

[skadistic]

Considering that about 80-90% of the USA claims to be Christian, do you think that has any basis in reality?

No I don't think god has any basis in reality so those who believe in it are clearly delusinal.

Oh so now it was illegal to do so? By all means run that up the SCOTUS flag pole and see who salutes it.

How about I run it up the common sence flag pole. You didn't answer the question as to weather it was voted on to insert the words 'under god' in the pledge. Wich established the country as a abramaic worshiping one in violation or the 1st amendment there by being illegal.

The point is christians should be upset over it if it is now changed. It has been that way for over 50 years.

How long was it the way it was before the christians illegaly took it and added words that illegaly tell the nation that their god is the one that matters and their god only.

 

[Mise]

Over 50 years!!!!

My God that's almost, liek, FOREVAR!!!!

...seriously how can someone be so passionate over something that's only been added 50 years ago? I can almost understand treating the US Constitution as the final word on any matter, but come on... an ad hoc addition that alienates (apparently) 20% of the population in a pledge that carries almost zero weight really doesn't seem like something one should treat as the final word...

 

[MobBoss]

No I don't think god has any basis in reality so those who believe in it are clearly delusinal.

And atheists wonder why no one likes them.

How about I run it up the common sence flag pole. You didn't answer the question as to weather it was voted on to insert the words 'under god' in the pledge. Wich established the country as a abramaic worshiping one in violation or the 1st amendment there by being illegal.

Obviously the various parts of our government dont agree with you. So your 'common sense' is anything but. Actually, its just more radical fringy atheist speak - just like your comment about people who believe in a god are delusional.

Btw, its not illegal, but was contained in a bill signed by President Eisenhower. You are also incorrect in that other relgions other than the abramiaic ones also use the term 'god'.

How long was it the way it was before the christians illegaly took it and added words that illegaly tell the nation that their god is the one that matters and their god only.

Again, you are real good at stating falsehood. Not illegal. If you doubt me, hire a lawyer, take it to SCOTUS and waste your money. Perhaps then you will learn.

 

[skadistic]

So Mobboss will answer the question as to how long the pledge was around before delusinal god fearing christians highjacked it to further their agenda of a nation based on make believe fairytails?

Moderator Action: There are many ways to say what you said without being insulting, and I suggest you find them in the future. Eyrei.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Atlas14]

I'm not a Christian and I don't have a problem with "under God". How can people be so sensitive to such a minute detail in a pointless exercise? Once you are 18 you don't even have to deal with the Pledge anymore.

 

[Paradigne]

These words [“under God”] will remind Americans that despite our great physical strength we must remain humble. They will help us to keep constantly in our minds and hearts the spiritual and moral principles which alone give dignity to man, and upon which our way of life is founded.

WIKI

'nuff said

 

[skadistic]

WIKI

'nuff said

Nuff said? Hardly. Imaginary gods have nothing to do with dignity or morality. And our way of life was not founded under god.

 

[MobBoss]

So Mobboss will answer the question as to how long the pledge was around before delusinal god fearing christians highjacked it to further their agenda of a nation based on make believe fairytails?

Let me know when you come back to reality and feel like discussing the issue without the insults. We will talk then.

 

[skadistic]

Insults? If you cant handle the truth that you pray to a god that doesn't exsist and expect me to be somehow beholden to said imaginary being by way of official government pledges then I don't care if your insulted. But reality being fairytales and imaginary friends in your mind I just can't lower my self to such nonsence.

I take you repeted reluctance as an unwillingness to have your "christians should be mad its been there for 50 years" hogwash refuted as some divine reasoning to impose your dilusinal regious bunk on the rest of us.

But hey I'm a guest in the house of fundimentalist christians god forbid I do anything but agree with them as it may hurt their feelings.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

We do not need it, its totally unneeded in this day and age.

Why? Whats different about this day and age?

We dont need to proclaim our loyalty to our nation unless we are soldiers.

Why not?

And children in grade school are not soldiers.

Its only a few short years between grade school and grenade launchers.

Heres our very controversal pledge:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

What makes it so controversial? 'Under God'? People need to grow up