Do you like Sam Harris?

I'm an atheist but sometimes the generalizations he makes about religious people bugs even me. Gave his show a shot but there's almost too much personal opinion in a show that supposedly comes from an erudite position. He's the type of atheist that gives atheists a bad name.

Honestly I'd be happier listening to the same show from someone who sounds dumber. It'd be easier to dismiss the generalizations and unfounded opinions from them. You know what I mean?
 
I guess my take on the indoctrination point is a little less nuanced Valka, but in case anyone cares - Once Dawkin's, or anyone else, tells me I'm wrong, morally, to "indoctrinate" my son in my religion, then they're absolutely done. Full stop, opinion chiseled unless view rescinded. And that's not because I don't think they have very good reasons to be angry about something. They probably do. But - here's the thing - I can't not indoctrinate my son constantly. He watches me, ravenously, for information and social queues and for how we act, then he wants to know why we act that way so he can sort it out on his own. Kids are big on learning to do things on their own. I'm sure you know this, but I like stating the obvious. It keeps my train of thought on line. So, functionally, if Dawkins tells me not to indoctrinate my son, he's telling me to exclude my child from a large part of my life, to lie to him about my reasoning about things, and to hide myself from him. And here's the justification - it's because I'm an immoral or inferior presence and influence to have around my own kids when they're still impressionable and weak to corruption. Which, for the record, should sound very familiar.
 
I guess my take on the indoctrination point is a little less nuanced Valka, but in case anyone cares - Once Dawkin's, or anyone else, tells me I'm wrong, morally, to "indoctrinate" my son in my religion, then they're absolutely done. Full stop, opinion chiseled unless view rescinded. And that's not because I don't think they have very good reasons to be angry about something. They probably do. But - here's the thing - I can't not indoctrinate my son constantly. He watches me, ravenously, for information and social queues and for how we act, then he wants to know why we act that way so he can sort it out on his own. Kids are big on learning to do things on their own. I'm sure you know this, but I like stating the obvious. It keeps my train of thought on line. So, functionally, if Dawkins tells me not to indoctrinate my son, he's telling me to exclude my child from a large part of my life, to lie to him about my reasoning about things, and to hide myself from him. And here's the justification - it's because I'm an immoral or inferior presence and influence to have around my own kids when they're still impressionable and weak to corruption. Which, for the record, should sound very familiar.

As far as I am aware, and granted this awareness could be lacking since I don't go seeking this stuff out, people who are anti-religious indoctrination are not anti-religious exposure.

Can we agree that a religious belief is based on faith, and not empirical evidence?

It is fairly well understood that a child will emulate their guardian, look to their guardian for guidance on how to navigate life, and are more inclined to take what their guardian says as concrete fact. Those who are religiously inclined tend to take advantage of this by describing their belief as fact. It is not a belief but instead the right way to live, period. Since this takes place in a child's most formative years, they often inherit this perspective. It's all they know. By the time competing viewpoints are relevant, they've been ingrained in a system that was deliberately designed to convince them that your way is the way.

You are not being asked to hide your faith from your child. You are being asked to not tell your child that your faith is fact, even if you believe more than anything else in the world that it is. The reality of the situation is, for any religious individual, they do not have concrete evidence that their belief is true. Atheists are held to this same standard, and I would likewise ask atheists to not teach their children that there is no creator. They have no concrete evidence to support such a claim.

The intended theory here is that you do not tell your child what is true when you do not know what is true. You structure it as an opinion, as a choice. You give them the opportunity to decide what they personally want to do. A child will naturally wish to be exposed to your faith and that should be encouraged; if you want to involve your child with your faith practices and they are amenable to that, great! Go right ahead. But this comes with the secondary expectation that they be educated about other faiths and other viewpoints so that, should there come a day when they wish to branch out from what you have selected as your path, they are capable of doing so and know that they do not run risk of being outcast from the family for doing so.

If you encourage your child to be curious of other viewpoints than your own, then you are not at risk of indoctrinating them. Indoctrination comes with the explicit implication that there is no choice in the matter because your behaviour is specifically designed to lead down one path and one path only. Telling your child that your belief is the only correct one would fall under indoctrination. Telling your child that your belief is your belief and they are welcome to join you in that journey should they so choose would not fall under indoctrination.
 
I guess my take on the indoctrination point is a little less nuanced Valka, but in case anyone cares - Once Dawkin's, or anyone else, tells me I'm wrong, morally, to "indoctrinate" my son in my religion, then they're absolutely done. Full stop, opinion chiseled unless view rescinded. And that's not because I don't think they have very good reasons to be angry about something. They probably do. But - here's the thing - I can't not indoctrinate my son constantly. He watches me, ravenously, for information and social queues and for how we act, then he wants to know why we act that way so he can sort it out on his own. Kids are big on learning to do things on their own. I'm sure you know this, but I like stating the obvious. It keeps my train of thought on line. So, functionally, if Dawkins tells me not to indoctrinate my son, he's telling me to exclude my child from a large part of my life, to lie to him about my reasoning about things, and to hide myself from him. And here's the justification - it's because I'm an immoral or inferior presence and influence to have around my own kids when they're still impressionable and weak to corruption. Which, for the record, should sound very familiar.
I'm no expert on Dawkins' opinions, but the bolded part makes me think that you aren't, in fact, indoctrinating your son. Definitions vary of course, but I think "indoctrination" implies a lack of critical thinking, of discouraging questions and imparting biases against outside points of view.
 
I am an actively rearing father. It is my obligation and responsibility to teach my son right from wrong. What actions are optional, what actions are obligatory, and what actions are unacceptable. I am also responsible, whether I want to be or not, for his indoctrination. Critical thinking skills develop over time. He didn't start with them developed and they aren't fully in place by the time kids start asking questions. He wants and needs to know why to act and not. He wants to know why his mom acts certain ways. He wants to know why his friends act certain ways. He wants to know why I act certain ways. He needs to know why he's being punished when he's punished, and he needs to know it's not arbitrary. There are reasons and it's not because I find it fun. No, he does not get free reign in deciding what the right way to live is. He's five. He does not get to hit his younger cousin when he breaks one of his toys. No, he's not getting a new one. Yes, he must continue to share toys in the future with his cousin. Yes, he can be mad, but he has to learn to deal with it because I am not sending his cousin home. No, it doesn't have to feel fair. Some things are more important in life than being fair.

If what you're asking is whether or not I'll love him regardless of his choices, I'd be taken aback.

If what you're warning me about is not teaching my son things like it rains because God has to pee, I'd be taken aback.

If what you're telling me to do is answer my son's big questions all with, "I don't know" or "Catholics think this, Hindus think this, Muslims think this, Agnostics think this..." No, that won't do. He wants to know what I think. Then he wants to know why I think it. I'm Dad. I'll tell him. If I don't, he'll get it from somewhere else. TV. The internet. He's going to get my doctrines until he's old enough to possess the developmental skills that will result in his accepting or rejecting them whether or not I want him to. He'll get enough indoctrination from his teachers, his peers, Hollywood, the music industry as is. I am not going to paint these alternative sources of doctrine and inculturation as equally worthy of respect and emulation, they're not. By calling me to de-emphasise my own, not only is there the implication that mine is damaged, there is a call that a different is so superior that the only moral thing I can do is to teach somebody else's. I refuse the shame.
 
It's unfortunate that you feel compelled to go out of your way to misinterpret what was said. Indeed, it is quite shameful that you feel exposing your child to a different viewpoint makes you inferior when nobody has suggested such a thing.
 
It's unfortunate that you feel compelled to go out of your way to misinterpret what was said. Indeed, it is quite shameful that you feel exposing your child to a different viewpoint makes you inferior when nobody has suggested such a thing.

Well, you pretty clearly misinterpreted what he said initially, so who's counting?

Where is the line between indoctrination and cultural reproduction?
 
I'm lost Vin. The responses aren't tracking in any way I predicted. Where would you say we are in the conversation right now?
 
Well, you pretty clearly misinterpreted what he said initially, so who's counting?

Where is the line between indoctrination and cultural reproduction?

The line was clearly drawn. Don't claim belief as fact and you're fine.
 
Those are oughts, not is-es. Stealing and murder being wrongnesses is Truth, not Fact. A distinction my son, I hope, gets taught to recognize!

And no, I don't mean that snarkily. I just mean that I don't think he's in the business of drawing that distinction yet.
 
Yeah, see, then Farm Boy didn't misinterpret anything. You are effectively saying that any parent that doesn't raise their children to be total moral relativists is raising their children wrong.

That's a dealbreaker.
 
Where is the line between indoctrination and cultural reproduction?
Vincour is already down river of that, so such a question is impossible to consider. Farm Boy explained it, it got mangled into... whatever. The best I can offer is I had a professor emphatically teach us to recognize "categories of interpretation"—one of the most basic and necessary skills for escaping your own indoctrination—and I watched as about 50% of students simply never understood that that wasn't a logical concept to be placed laterally with the goings-on of whatever theory or history we were learning. In other words, they didn't get that the concept of "categories of interpretation" is upriver of what you use the interpretations to study (history/theory) downriver.

Vincour is showing us his unquestioning cultural indoctrination, without demonstrating recognition of what constitutes such a thing, by posting as if his understanding of how these lines can even be drawn is already decided and that his position is universal.
 
Yeah, see, then Farm Boy didn't misinterpret anything. You are effectively saying that any parent that doesn't raise their children to be total moral relativists is raising their children wrong.

I suppose that depends on your perspective. What you see as moral relativism I see as providing a child a proper foundation to being "moral". A code of ethics and a dominant lifestyle are more effective and easier to defend if you are capable of reasoning why these things are what they are. "It just is" isn't a compelling argument or a reasonable foundation for developing a personal standard for morality and conduct. I don't disagree that murder, for example, is wrong. I believe, to the very bottom of my being, that murder should be avoided at almost all costs. Is that belief right? I think so.

That belief of being right ends at the limits of my psyche. My belief does not make it so. People will disagree with me. People will agree with me but for different reasons. I've never been a direct parent although I have been in a position of raising children, and I do hope that a child influenced by my care may inherit my beliefs. Of course I do; I think I'm right. But I'm cognizant enough to know that my thoughts are not absolute. They do not dictate reality for those that aren't me.

I'm also cognizant enough to know that my approach is unusual. I was raised in a cult and I do not share their moral code or their staunch belief that their perspective is right. In many respects, I view religious belief through the same lens and that is a bias I am vocal about having. That said, it is also a bias that applies against those who aren't religious, and it's an approach I try to apply to most aspects of life when it comes to caring for a child. You're responsible for their well-being but you are also responsible for preparing them to be the best human they can be once they aren't under your roof and even before then. It is difficult to do so if you sabotage their ability to be critical and to analyze.

I understand that the word 'sabotage' has a significantly negative connotation to it, but it's a word that drives home the point that I don't think presenting belief as unwavering fact that must be followed is a good idea. This does not mean you can't tell your child why you believe your beliefs. This does not mean that you cannot set restrictions, such as how you worship under your own roof. This does not mean you can't make a point of making it clear which belief system is yours and that you want them to follow it. You can have your ambitions, your agenda, and your desires. Nobody is attempting to wrestle that away from the parent. The only thing being wrestled away, if it can even be described as such, is that you don't grab your religious text, bring your child to a religious structure, and tell them in the middle of a religious ritual, "This is right. Everything else is wrong."
 
It is difficult to do so if you sabotage their ability to be critical and to analyze.

I understand that the word 'sabotage' has a significantly negative connotation to it, but it's a word that drives home the point that I don't think presenting belief as unwavering fact that must be followed is a good idea. This does not mean you can't tell your child why you believe your beliefs. This does not mean that you cannot set restrictions, such as how you worship under your own roof. This does not mean you can't make a point of making it clear which belief system is yours and that you want them to follow it. You can have your ambitions, your agenda, and your desires. Nobody is attempting to wrestle that away from the parent. The only thing being wrestled away, if it can even be described as such, is that you don't grab your religious text, bring your child to a religious structure, and tell them in the middle of a religious ritual, "This is right. Everything else is wrong."

So ah, are you under the impression that anyone here is saying this is a sensible way to raise a child?
 
So ah, are you under the impression that anyone here is saying this is a sensible way to raise a child?

No. I'm under the impression that Farm Boy thinks something else is being asked of him than what really is. The context begins at this post and goes down from there.
 
I've read all those posts, just explain it to me like I'm an idiot.
 
I guess my take on the indoctrination point is a little less nuanced Valka, but in case anyone cares - Once Dawkin's, or anyone else, tells me I'm wrong, morally, to "indoctrinate" my son in my religion, then they're absolutely done. Full stop, opinion chiseled unless view rescinded. And that's not because I don't think they have very good reasons to be angry about something. They probably do. But - here's the thing - I can't not indoctrinate my son constantly. He watches me, ravenously, for information and social queues and for how we act, then he wants to know why we act that way so he can sort it out on his own. Kids are big on learning to do things on their own. I'm sure you know this, but I like stating the obvious. It keeps my train of thought on line. So, functionally, if Dawkins tells me not to indoctrinate my son, he's telling me to exclude my child from a large part of my life, to lie to him about my reasoning about things, and to hide myself from him. And here's the justification - it's because I'm an immoral or inferior presence and influence to have around my own kids when they're still impressionable and weak to corruption. Which, for the record, should sound very familiar.

That all sounds incredibly reasonable, from my (atheist) point of view at least. I wonder if Dawkins would have a problem with you "indoctorinating" your child if you didn't baptise him at an early age and didn't keep him from other schools of thought, so that he is not only exposed to your brand of Christianity and nothing else. Mind you, even though I'm 100% against baptism, I do not for one second think that it is reasonable for parents to just.. stop doing that. It's a huge part of many cultures, and I accept that it isn't going away anytime soon, even though I'm against it. So personally I would only be against what you just said above if you purposefully kept your child from other schools of thought, which I don't think you would do (guessing by what sort of person I imagine you be based on what sorts of posts you make here, etc.)

So yeah I think that is a more than reasonble point of view from you there. At the same time though I understand the "It's not good to indoctorinate our children at a young age" point of view, depending on the details.
 
I've read all those posts, just explain it to me like I'm an idiot.

You're not an idiot so I can't do that.

It helps if you read my initial reply as correcting a misconception, and all further replies from there as being an indignant arse about the correction being (seemingly) ignored/misconstrued.
 
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