Do you like Sam Harris?

[Berzerker]

I already answered your question, his name is the 3rd word in my post and I quoted him just for you

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I already answered your question, his name is the 3rd word in my post and I quoted him just for you

I just did a search on your posting history in this thread. Not one of your posts has a proper noun as the third word.

This is just childish, and I really am not in the mood for a rerun of the crap you pulled in the last thread where you kept refusing to give me a straight answer.

State the name of the person you quoted, or I'm just going to assume you're handing me more of your "mythology."

 

[Berzerker]

here it is again:

1. there are other religions besides christianity
2. that's up to the individual atheist - they don't have any more in common besides rejecting religion

Val, I suggest you read discussions before jumping in demanding people repeat themselves because you cant be bothered to read their discussions.

All you had to do was read 3 words into my answer and you would have read his name and you couldn't even do that...and then you get obnoxious. Your argument is with other atheists, not me...

 

[Valka D'Ur]

here it is again:



Val, I suggest you read discussions before jumping in demanding people repeat themselves because you cant be bothered to read their discussions.

All you had to do was read 3 words into my answer and you would have read his name and you couldn't even do that...and then you get obnoxious. Your argument is with other atheists, not me...

1. You said the third word of your post was the name of the person you quoted. None of your posts had a name as the third word.

2. You do not have permission to call me "Val." I have told you this numerous times.

 

[timtofly]

Is there some reason why you prefer to be clear as mud instead of just plain clear?

Please explain to me what set of beliefs a child has that you are claiming are being changed by a set of Parents. You are the the one who is defining that children are born with a complete set of beliefs. I am not arguing that point. You contend that it comes from no where, or at the least evolution. If this is not the case, then you cannot use the term brainwashing. I am not sure why you used an unrelated synonym to prove your point.

To indoctrinate is to teach ones doctrines, but please explain how reading a book, listening to music, or watching shows over and over is "indoctrination" as opposed to just doing things that one normally does in the course of human events. The culture is hardly 30% atheist. Why are you making the claim it is 100%, and parents even feel the need to prevent their children from being part of it?

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

You know I looked more carefully at what Sam Harris actually has to say, and I more or less owe Goodenoughforme an apology. Quite a few of his views are disturbing.

Thanks man, no sweat. Yeah I mean, I was a fan of his back in my college days. But I feel like a lot of these people aim their general antipathy towards religion in ways that often veer towards bigotry.

 

[warpus]

Yeah if that stuff is not out of context then that is worrying as far as this guy's character goes.

 

[El_Machinae]

They're snippets of a much broader thesis. In general, they're out of context. He makes moral errors, but not ones that are so egregious and frequent or maintained.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Please explain to me what set of beliefs a child has that you are claiming are being changed by a set of Parents. You are the the one who is defining that children are born with a complete set of beliefs. I am not arguing that point. You contend that it comes from no where, or at the least evolution. If this is not the case, then you cannot use the term brainwashing. I am not sure why you used an unrelated synonym to prove your point.

I never said that children are born with a complete set of beliefs. Where did you ever get the notion that I did say that?

The only "belief" that most children seem to be born with is "everything is all about what I want, what I need, and everyone has to do what I want." Babies don't give a damn if their parents are exhausted or if there's not enough money to have and do everything. They want food, they want to be warm, they want their diaper changed, and they want to be cuddled. Period. If they don't get it when they want it, they cry. There's no concept of "Mom's tired, I'd better let her sleep another hour."

As children get older, they're gradually exposed to the fact that everything is not all about them. They can't have everything they want, when they want it, or even if they want it. They have to be taught to share with others, whether it be their toys, their clothes, their activities, their time, and learn that in most cases if they want something, they can't always have it now, and they might not be able to have it at all.

Parents use different methods to teach these things. Some parents use corporal punishment or verbal abuse. Some use plain reasoning. Some use bible lessons, rather than just the lessons without the religious dressings to go along with it. And if the parents take the child to church or to Sunday school, at some point the kid is going to be told "You (we) are Christian. This is what you (we) believe (or are supposed to believe)."

There was an incident that happened when I was in school. I was talking to one of my classmates (we were friendly, but not what I would really call friends), and the subject of religion came up when she said she couldn't sing a particular Christmas carol because of her religion. I was asked, "What religion are you?" and I vaguely remembered my grandfather mentioning the Lutheran church back when he was still living in Sweden. So I mentioned that, and she promptly said, "Oh, you're an atheist!" in the tone of voice that said "that's a bad thing." So I went home that night and started asking my mother questions. Her version was that no, we were not atheists, and we weren't Lutherans. She never really said what she thought we were, but many years later when I'd figured this stuff out for myself, I realized that my mother didn't want to identify with anything to do with my grandfather (she didn't like him at all), and that whatever she was, she was disgusted when I told her I was atheist.

My aunt was Pentecostal for awhile, and kept pestering my mom and her brother to send my cousin and me to Sunday school. So they did, and for me it lasted exactly two weeks. My dad found out, hit the roof, and put his foot down. A couple of years later I realized that it wasn't the idea of Sunday school that bothered him as much as the Pentecostal part. But at that time (I was 10 and he had custody; my mother never again got to make any decisions for me), he asked if I wanted to go to church or Sunday school, and I said no.

That was the end of any discussion we had about me attending church, although I did go a few more times in my life - a couple of weddings, several funerals, I sang in a carol festival one year (it was a school music class thing), and played in a recital (arranged by the music studio where I'd been taking organ lessons). I accompanied my grandmother to a New Year's Eve dance at a church once, since she wanted to go and persuaded me that I might hear some new music I could play for her later (I play best by ear, and it wasn't unusual for my grandparents and me to go to a dance in the community where they used to live, hear a song or two, and then be able to play that song on the organ after we got home). There was a prayer service before midnight, and I remember being annoyed when it droned on and on, and midnight came and went... anyway, my grandmother enjoyed herself and was pleased that she'd been asked to dance by one of the minor local celebrities... an author who also had a newspaper column. She enjoyed his writing, so she was happy to have been asked to dance with him.

To indoctrinate is to teach ones doctrines, but please explain how reading a book, listening to music, or watching shows over and over is "indoctrination" as opposed to just doing things that one normally does in the course of human events. The culture is hardly 30% atheist. Why are you making the claim it is 100%, and parents even feel the need to prevent their children from being part of it?

When you sit someone down and tell them to read a specific book, listen to specific music, or watch specific shows over and over, it's reasonable to assume that the person is going to be expected to believe that what the book says is correct, that the music is good, and that the message(s) in the shows is true.

There's a difference between my high school English teacher assigning us to read Hamlet and assigning us to read the Jerusalem Bible and write an essay on what we were told to read. The first is just a normal high school assignment. The teacher didn't actually care whether or not we ended up enjoying Shakespeare, and to my knowledge, there is no "Church of Shakespeare." The second was attempted indoctrination, considering that she basically used that as a secondary textbook for every grade (I had her all three years). And she slipped up and really let her bias shine through in the debate assignment we had. I was assigned to debate in the affirmative that history should not be taught in schools. I considered it a really stupid position to take, since where else would you learn history, if not in school? But in the Q&A part of the assignment, she asked, "What about the Bible? That's history." I disagreed with her, she didn't get a lot of support from the other kids, and I have to wonder if that was when she decided to assign me to be a judge for the evolution vs. creationism debate that some other classmates had to do.


Where did I say the culture (which culture?) is 30% atheist, or 100% atheist?

It's a fact that some parents are horrified that their kids might associate with atheists, and they even take their kids out of public school and homeschool them so they won't be exposed to things like sex education and science classes that teach something other than Genesis.

Just yesterday I was reading an old article about a Toronto man who pulled his son out of his English class because the book being taught was The Handmaid's Tale. Apparently the father found the book "anti-Christian" and full of bad words that kids would not be allowed to say. He went as far as trying to have it banned. But oddly enough, he didn't object to Brave New World - which is definitely anti-Christian, and very much anti-nuclear family and even anti-marriage. So the kid was allowed to study a different novel, and left the room every time the teacher mentioned anything from The Handmaid's Tale.

 

[Berzerker]

1. You said the third word of your post was the name of the person you quoted. None of your posts had a name as the third word.

2. You do not have permission to call me "Val." I have told you this numerous times.

This is from post #143

From him

Lohrenswald said: ↑
1. there are other religions besides christianity
2. that's up to the individual atheist - they don't have any more in common besides rejecting religion

The 3rd word is his name, V

 

[Valka D'Ur]

This is from post #143



The 3rd word is his name, V

I don't take text that is part of BBCode as a separate word.

You also don't have permission to call me "V."

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It just can't be a divine creator

What other kind of creator are you talking about?

 

[Berzerker]

I don't take text that is part of BBCode as a separate word.

You also don't have permission to call me "V."

You asked me where I got the idea an atheist could believe in a creator and I said "from him" followed by a quote "from him" beginning with his name. So the name heading the quote is not a separate word and you couldn't figure out who I was debating? Seriously? You didn't bother reading beyond the 2 words "from him". You stopped reading and started complaining how you couldn't be bothered to read my posting history. I'm not typing your name out, if that bothers you, dont include me in your daily drive-by.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I'm not typing your name out, if that bothers you, dont include me in your daily drive-by.

I am not in the habit of engaging in "daily drive-by" posting. I am in the habit of respecting people's wishes regarding their usernames.

I suggest you read the explanation of how a particular forum feature works in the PM I just sent. It outlines why it's a good idea to specify exactly who you're quoting.

 

[timtofly]

I never said that children are born with a complete set of beliefs. Where did you ever get the notion that I did say that?

The only "belief" that most children seem to be born with is "everything is all about what I want, what I need, and everyone has to do what I want." Babies don't give a damn if their parents are exhausted or if there's not enough money to have and do everything. They want food, they want to be warm, they want their diaper changed, and they want to be cuddled. Period. If they don't get it when they want it, they cry. There's no concept of "Mom's tired, I'd better let her sleep another hour."

As children get older, they're gradually exposed to the fact that everything is not all about them. They can't have everything they want, when they want it, or even if they want it. They have to be taught to share with others, whether it be their toys, their clothes, their activities, their time, and learn that in most cases if they want something, they can't always have it now, and they might not be able to have it at all.

Parents use different methods to teach these things. Some parents use corporal punishment or verbal abuse. Some use plain reasoning. Some use bible lessons, rather than just the lessons without the religious dressings to go along with it. And if the parents take the child to church or to Sunday school, at some point the kid is going to be told "You (we) are Christian. This is what you (we) believe (or are supposed to believe)."

There was an incident that happened when I was in school. I was talking to one of my classmates (we were friendly, but not what I would really call friends), and the subject of religion came up when she said she couldn't sing a particular Christmas carol because of her religion. I was asked, "What religion are you?" and I vaguely remembered my grandfather mentioning the Lutheran church back when he was still living in Sweden. So I mentioned that, and she promptly said, "Oh, you're an atheist!" in the tone of voice that said "that's a bad thing." So I went home that night and started asking my mother questions. Her version was that no, we were not atheists, and we weren't Lutherans. She never really said what she thought we were, but many years later when I'd figured this stuff out for myself, I realized that my mother didn't want to identify with anything to do with my grandfather (she didn't like him at all), and that whatever she was, she was disgusted when I told her I was atheist.

My aunt was Pentecostal for awhile, and kept pestering my mom and her brother to send my cousin and me to Sunday school. So they did, and for me it lasted exactly two weeks. My dad found out, hit the roof, and put his foot down. A couple of years later I realized that it wasn't the idea of Sunday school that bothered him as much as the Pentecostal part. But at that time (I was 10 and he had custody; my mother never again got to make any decisions for me), he asked if I wanted to go to church or Sunday school, and I said no.

That was the end of any discussion we had about me attending church, although I did go a few more times in my life - a couple of weddings, several funerals, I sang in a carol festival one year (it was a school music class thing), and played in a recital (arranged by the music studio where I'd been taking organ lessons). I accompanied my grandmother to a New Year's Eve dance at a church once, since she wanted to go and persuaded me that I might hear some new music I could play for her later (I play best by ear, and it wasn't unusual for my grandparents and me to go to a dance in the community where they used to live, hear a song or two, and then be able to play that song on the organ after we got home). There was a prayer service before midnight, and I remember being annoyed when it droned on and on, and midnight came and went... anyway, my grandmother enjoyed herself and was pleased that she'd been asked to dance by one of the minor local celebrities... an author who also had a newspaper column. She enjoyed his writing, so she was happy to have been asked to dance with him.


When you sit someone down and tell them to read a specific book, listen to specific music, or watch specific shows over and over, it's reasonable to assume that the person is going to be expected to believe that what the book says is correct, that the music is good, and that the message(s) in the shows is true.

There's a difference between my high school English teacher assigning us to read Hamlet and assigning us to read the Jerusalem Bible and write an essay on what we were told to read. The first is just a normal high school assignment. The teacher didn't actually care whether or not we ended up enjoying Shakespeare, and to my knowledge, there is no "Church of Shakespeare." The second was attempted indoctrination, considering that she basically used that as a secondary textbook for every grade (I had her all three years). And she slipped up and really let her bias shine through in the debate assignment we had. I was assigned to debate in the affirmative that history should not be taught in schools. I considered it a really stupid position to take, since where else would you learn history, if not in school? But in the Q&A part of the assignment, she asked, "What about the Bible? That's history." I disagreed with her, she didn't get a lot of support from the other kids, and I have to wonder if that was when she decided to assign me to be a judge for the evolution vs. creationism debate that some other classmates had to do.


Where did I say the culture (which culture?) is 30% atheist, or 100% atheist?

It's a fact that some parents are horrified that their kids might associate with atheists, and they even take their kids out of public school and homeschool them so they won't be exposed to things like sex education and science classes that teach something other than Genesis.

Just yesterday I was reading an old article about a Toronto man who pulled his son out of his English class because the book being taught was The Handmaid's Tale. Apparently the father found the book "anti-Christian" and full of bad words that kids would not be allowed to say. He went as far as trying to have it banned. But oddly enough, he didn't object to Brave New World - which is definitely anti-Christian, and very much anti-nuclear family and even anti-marriage. So the kid was allowed to study a different novel, and left the room every time the teacher mentioned anything from The Handmaid's Tale.

Brainwashing is an attempt to change a person's belief system, so you cannot use it on those who do not have one formed yet.

You have yet to provide an example of indoctrination that is different from normal education of the majority of humans.

Calling a child a Christian is not a formal point of Doctrine. Nor is holding their behavior in check with the "threat" of being a Christian one either. Most parents are incapable of forcing a belief system on their children.

It would seem to me though, that some here, fear the point, evolution forbid, that a child would accept God, and form a belief system to that end.

 

[Berzerker]

I am not in the habit of engaging in "daily drive-by" posting. I am in the habit of respecting people's wishes regarding their usernames.

How many people here have complained about their usernames being abbreviated?

I suggest you read the explanation of how a particular forum feature works in the PM I just sent. It outlines why it's a good idea to specify exactly who you're quoting.

I did specify exactly who I was quoting, you ignored me because you decided his name wasn't a separate word (whatever that means).

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Brainwashing is an attempt to change a person's belief system, so you cannot use it on those who do not have one formed yet.

You have yet to provide an example of indoctrination that is different from normal education of the majority of humans.

Did you watch the video I posted?

Calling a child a Christian is not a formal point of Doctrine. Nor is holding their behavior in check with the "threat" of being a Christian one either. Most parents are incapable of forcing a belief system on their children.

It would seem to me though, that some here, fear the point, evolution forbid, that a child would accept God, and form a belief system to that end.

Other than your own parents, how many parents have you had experience with, listening to them talk about how they think kids should be raised, or observed how they treat kids? How many online discussions regarding parent-child interaction have you participated in?

Some time back, on the CBC.ca news site, there was a series of stories about a community in my province that has more Catholic residents than non-Catholic residents. The way things work in my province is that if the majority of the residents in the district identify as Catholic, that's what kind of school the community gets. The non-Catholics are SOL. When situations come up in which non-Catholic kids are publicly shamed in front of their peers and sent to the principal's office for opting out of morning prayers (as they have a legal right to do), and the non-Catholic parents ask the Catholic school board to share a room or two for the non-Catholic kids, they get told "no." When the woman whose son was shamed for opting out of prayers told them why she couldn't send her son to a school in the next town (medical reasons; he can't be unsupervised for the 40-minute bus trip it would mean for him to go back and forth), those loving, Christian parents told her, "Suck it up or move." And the comments came flying about how "all children need to learn how to live a moral life and only a Christian school can teach them that"... I don't understand how they can't comprehend why these are such arrogant things to say. With an attitude like that, you can bet they're passing it on to their kids.

How many people here have complained about their usernames being abbreviated?

More than just me, but for the sake of privacy of the individuals involved, I'm not going to mention who.

That's not the point, though. The point is that I have asked you not to do it, and then I told you not to do it. For some reason you are still digging a hole on this, instead of complying.

I did specify exactly who I was quoting, you ignored me because you decided his name wasn't a separate word (whatever that means).

I explained more than once, and it's not productive for you to belabor it.

 

[Berzerker]

I'm not digging a hole, I'm just not typing your name out. It aint got nothing to do with you, your name is just a pain in the rear to remember. Well, it has a little to do with you... I'm less inclined to acquiesce to the demands of a bully. But now I'm belaboring it? You asked me to identify the atheist I was debating - so I did - then you got nasty and accused me of not answering.

Then after all that you just accused me again of not identifying him - you even sent a pm? You're arguing with him between our posts. Admit it, you didn't read my answer. You saw "from him" and had a brainfart. It didn't dawn on you to continue reading... Thats why you started rambling about my posting history while ignoring my answer.

 

[Flying Pig]

Moderator Action: I'm sure you can all find something more interesting to talk about than each others' usernames. Please do so.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[timtofly]

Did you watch the video I posted?


Other than your own parents, how many parents have you had experience with, listening to them talk about how they think kids should be raised, or observed how they treat kids? How many online discussions regarding parent-child interaction have you participated in?

Some time back, on the CBC.ca news site, there was a series of stories about a community in my province that has more Catholic residents than non-Catholic residents. The way things work in my province is that if the majority of the residents in the district identify as Catholic, that's what kind of school the community gets. The non-Catholics are SOL. When situations come up in which non-Catholic kids are publicly shamed in front of their peers and sent to the principal's office for opting out of morning prayers (as they have a legal right to do), and the non-Catholic parents ask the Catholic school board to share a room or two for the non-Catholic kids, they get told "no." When the woman whose son was shamed for opting out of prayers told them why she couldn't send her son to a school in the next town (medical reasons; he can't be unsupervised for the 40-minute bus trip it would mean for him to go back and forth), those loving, Christian parents told her, "Suck it up or move." And the comments came flying about how "all children need to learn how to live a moral life and only a Christian school can teach them that"... I don't understand how they can't comprehend why these are such arrogant things to say. With an attitude like that, you can bet they're passing it on to their kids.

Of course culture is passed on to children. That is how life works. You have changed the subject now to being persecuted for one's beliefs. Humans are very mean to "outsiders". That still does not prove your point. There was a post recently, where some are complaining that genetics and alowing Nazis to live is morally reprehensible. That still is not indoctrination. If teaching a way of life is indoctrination, then a child should not be exposed to any culture, until their teens.

After 100 years, it seems a given fact that a purely godless society will never happen, even when humans attempt to as you call it "indoctrinate" people with that ideology.

As for your video, no. I see snippets of similiar videos off and on in the news all the time. We are slowly being indoctrinated that closed groups are socially unacceptable. Why do you think there is such an uproar over the new alleged power grab of "fascist" in the USA these days?

Anecdotal edit: there are laws in the liberal socialistic America that charge parents as guilty until proven innocent for allegedly "indoctrinating" their children. This is in contrast to the standard innocent until proven guilty stance and parents can loose their parental rights. Although parenting is not a right. It is a standard biological fact. No matter who decides to claim otherwise.