Dumpster Fire Discussions

[Farm Boy]

One size fits all?

 

[Sommerswerd]

You tell me? I guess?

If we're talking about the folks who are passing laws about bathrooms and sports participation, sure.

Of course there are plenty of folks who are not involved in any of that and don't care to be... they're just... undecided, looking for a balance, ambivalent, waiting to see how things play out... and so on.

So for those I guess... "... you must acquit"... as the saying goes... or something along those lines.

 

[sophie]

Perhaps instead I'll just label arguments as red herrings so I can ignore them

Indeed, but perhaps it's somewhere we'd have more agreement

The women solely in a-c cannot influence the given circumstance in the same way the women in d can influence the results of puberty (although I suppose a case could be made regarding c).

So what you're proposing is that a trans woman at age 12 or 13 is going to willingly and intentionally subject herself to s*****al-ideation-inducing trauma and irreversible physiological changes that she is going to spend the rest of her life hating herself for and will, in all likelihood, end up spending tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket in corrective surgery to mitigate on the off chance that she might get a slight physical advantage that isn't even guaranteed. And this constitutes such a clear, pervasive, and unfair advantage that trans women are necessarily to be placed in a category wholly apart from all other types of women. Am I understanding that correctly?

Because if you take out the intentionally-inducing-male-puberty part, a notion which is utterly incongruent to my own experience and that of any of the many trans people I've known in my life, then you're just back in the randomly assigned, uncorrelated physical, sociological and developmental capacities that the individual has no personal control over (outside diet and access to medical care), which is no different than the puberty of a cis person. Some cis people win the genetic and sociological lottery and get a physiology well-suited to a particular sport and others don't. Likewise, some trans women are (un)lucky enough to realize they're trans after puberty's starkest physical changes have occurred but before they're too old to be able to take advantage of them in the collegiate or Olympic circuits, and also win the sports genetic lottery inasmuch as the puberty blesses them with physiological advantages well-suited to a particular sport and also have the familial support and psychological fortitude to be able to withstand the effects of that puberty without it totally derailing their life, academics, and training through dysphoria-induced alcohol or drug dependency, self-harm, or depression - and others don't. It's all a giant lottery, and one you're otherwise apparently perfectly fine with accepting as fair and reasonable. So again, why not here?

The rules acknowledge this difference, which is why hormones are required to compete. Unless trans women shouldn't need to take hormones to compete with other women? Based on your arguments, I don't really see why men and women should compete separately at all

Personally I don't like the men/women pools divide because it erases the existence of nonbinary people, and applies a cisnormative framework for transition which is not universal, and so I would much rather the creation of pools localized to the sport itself (e.g. sorted according to a rolling average of past performances or using an Elo system, or some relevant gender-neutral physical attribute), rather than according to an arbitrary a priori social construct. But I don't see how it follows from the arguments I have made that separate pools for men and women shouldn't exist. Quite the contrary: my argument for the duration of this conversation has always been for a stricter adherence towards the delineation between the separate pools: if the distinction is men and women, then all men should be in the men pool and all women should be in the women pool. It is you who is muddying the distinction by saying that some women should be in the women pool, but other women should be in the men pool.

One size fits all?

This is why I said you can't hold all 4 positions simultaneously. You cannot concede that physical variation within a category is fair, while also acknowledging trans women are women while also saying trans women shouldn't be allowed to compete with women due to an unfair physical attribute. You have to drop one of those positions.

If the guiding criterion, as sommer said, is "woman," and one size would be deemed perfectly fitting for the 6'0" 309 lb powerlifter that can clean and jerk 340 lbs and the 4'10" 100 lb academic that struggles to open a jar of pickles, and all variations above, and below or in-between, then why should trans women problematize that criterion unless you don't actually think trans women are women?

 

[IglooDame]

Don't forget that the people complaining about trans women having the athletic advantage of a male puberty are also largely the people trying hard to make sure all trans women are forced to experience male puberty.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Perhaps instead I'll just label arguments as red herrings so I can ignore them

Indeed, but perhaps it's somewhere we'd have more agreement

The women solely in a-c cannot influence the given circumstance in the same way the women in d can influence the results of puberty (although I suppose a case could be made regarding c). The rules acknowledge this difference, which is why hormones are required to compete. Unless trans women shouldn't need to take hormones to compete with other women? Based on your arguments, I don't really see why men and women should compete separately at all

cool but are trans women women?

 

[Farm Boy]

I dunno. Sport is social. The rules are arbitrary. Unfair physical altercation without rules is war. Professional sport is about profit. Olympic sport is about international grandstanding. Fairness and sensible categorization are red herrings entirely, aren't they?

A ladies chess club is a ladies chess club. High school sports are high school sports. Men's night is men's night. Ultimately, people looking for a safe competition space you hope can find one. But, after watching, say, the Boy Scouts get fundamentally shifted in the pursuit of elusive fairness(I know it's partially tangential), my hopes are kinda whatever. None of the decisions I make that are of any import flow downstream from the question of professional sport. Whatever was unjust, will remain unjust still. Whatever was righteous, will remain righteous still.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Okay cool but are trans women women or do you disagree

 

[Birdjaguar]

Okay cool but are trans women women or do you disagree

Or perhaps a better question would be: When does a trans woman become a woman?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Or perhaps a better question would be: When does a trans woman become a woman?

What the christ are you on about

 

[Birdjaguar]

It is pretty simple: When does a trans woman become a woman? Does it happen when he decides the he is really a she? Does it happen upon public declaration? Does it happen after 1 day or 1 month of hormones? Does it happen with bottom surgery? At some other time? Are people born trans?

If the question is, is a trans woman a woman, then at some point that event happens. If I were to declare my self a trans woman tomorrow, in your eyes, would I be a woman?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

It is pretty simple: When does a trans woman become a woman? Does it happen when he decides the he is really a she? Does it happen upon public declaration? Does it happen after 1 day or 1 month of hormones? Does it happen with bottom surgery? At some other time? Are people born trans?

If the question is, is a trans woman a woman, then at some point that event happens. If I were to declare my self a trans woman tomorrow, in your eyes, would I be a woman?

How about its none of your business and its weird to go around asking people to justify when and how they became the gender they are

I mean would you ever ask a person who is cis or who you assume is cis this

 

[El_Machinae]

There needs to be criteria whenever there's a sorting situation, especially when someone else has to decide on gating.

The one problem with a condition being rare is that the relative number of people who are simply jerks is a greater proportion.

 

[Farm Boy]

Okay cool but are trans women women or do you disagree

I'm having a hard time thinking up with a conversation in which I would.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I'm having a hard time thinking up with a conversation in which I would.

I'm asking you, personally

 

[sophie]

It is pretty simple: When does a trans woman become a woman? Does it happen when he decides the he is really a she? Does it happen upon public declaration? Does it happen after 1 day or 1 month of hormones? Does it happen with bottom surgery? At some other time? Are people born trans?

If the question is, is a trans woman a woman, then at some point that event happens. If I were to declare my self a trans woman tomorrow, in your eyes, would I be a woman?

Jesus dude. We're real people, not neat little abstract thought experiments. Do you talk about everybody like this?

 

[Birdjaguar]

NVM

@Cloud_Strife I had a long reply and then decided, it was not likely lead to a worthwhile conversation. Good luck in all your endeavors to improve your life.

My answer to your question is yes.

 

[Berzerker]

Adding or reducing hormones will not negate all the years the body developed as male or female or somewhere in between, takes time for the body to adapt. A heavier person who has to move more mass develops more muscle, remove the excess mass and they will lose some muscle but the structure or scaffold supporting that weight doesn't disappear. I dont know how long hormone treatment has to go on to be 'fair':

We report that the performance gap between males and females becomes significant at puberty and often amounts to 10-50% depending on sport. The performance gap is more pronounced in sporting activities relying on muscle mass and explosive strength, particularly in the upper body. Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

That aint much. I remember a study posted at cfc a while back that still found an advantage 2 years after treatment begins but it was significantly smaller than that. Maybe 30 months for sports where it matters the most.

To me, it's fascinating that from such free speech advocates (going on general posts from a variety of topics) would choose to defend rules and policies that seem to be overly-restrictive, if not outright harmful. This dissonance is what suggests a pre-existing bias, because it isn't consistent with your, or Berzerker's, or whoever elses' positions whereby rules need to be conclusively demonstrated as being beneficial before restricting a person's liberties or freedoms (generally speaking).

This is a claim that has little, if any, consistent supporting evidence. But you make it anyway, because of course you do

I've played sports most of my life, competitive, still do, so I think I know enough about fairness in sports... and yes, they all had rules. Are you saying free speech means no rules in sports?

People who do not regard trans women as women, at worst, regarding them as men dishonestly pretending to be women for competitive advantage... are nevertheless reluctant to state outright that this is their position, for fear of being labeled as bigoted.

If womens sports are reserved for women and transwomen are women, then transwomen can compete in womens sports. The only justification for exclusion is denial of their identity as women.

Whats that about a competitive advantage? Bigots for fairness! Are you denying their trans'ness'? Trans call themselves trans and you use the word quite a bit.

 

[Berzerker]

a) Some women are taller than others. This makes them more likely to excel at certain sports than other women. This does not compromise competitive integrity.
b) Some women see better than others. This makes them more likely to excel at certain sports than other women. This does not compromise competitive integrity.
c) Some women are born into more affluent families, neighborhoods, and countries. This makes them more likely to excel at certain sports than other women. This does not compromise competitive integrity.
d) Some women experience male puberty. This makes them more likely to excel at certain sports than other women. This does compromise competitive integrity.

Why the disjunction between a-c and d?

Wealthy tall trans women with good vision will dominate in those sports.

e) men experience male puberty and are more likely to excel at most if not all sports and that does compromise competitive integrity.

 

[Farm Boy]

Okay cool but are trans women women or do you disagree

I'm asking you, personally

I'm having a hard time thinking up with a conversation in which I would.

Not trying to be cute just sticking with the answer.

 

[sophie]

Wealthy tall trans women with good vision will dominate in those sports.

e) men experience male puberty and are more likely to excel at most if not all sports and that does compromise competitive integrity.