Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

Who do you think will win in November?


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Biden is the 1 person who beat Trump. :D


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California is 60% counted on Friday. :lol:
Its been called for Harris though, Nevada and AZ still not done either. I am interested in some of the AZ results. Ricky Lake vs Gallego. In CA you can hand in (not mail in) a mail in ballot on election day, I believe. That must put a wrench in the system. Ive been guilty of that.
 
this is another clueless take on America and reality for that matter.

sure, w/e, deport 10 million manual labors and watch the crops rot in the fields, housing double in price overnight, not to mention the moral nightmare on TV as this happens, great way to start on three with the judeo-christian bullfeathers... people who think these two things are not diametrically opposed befuddle me with their ignorance, of christian values (this is often the case) or what a mass deportation would look like (always the case).

two? sure fine. not a fan of empire anyways... kind of weird kicking in your neighbors' doors forcing them to sell you their toaster or you will blow up their home... that behavior is bathorsehocky crazy.

3? yea you can gtfo with that horsehocky. I'm a very conservative person in my private life and I want nothing to do with w/e you mean here. willing to fight a war over this one...

4? So is this one of those accelerationists christian fundamentalist takes? I'm not sure why you seem so intent on destroying the one planet you have

5? Sure, but that 20-60% will directly inflate prices across the economy.

6? Idc about corporates taxes, sure get rid of them and raise the lost revenue on anyone making over 200k... that going to be a helluva hike, but the tax system would be better for it and much more progressive actually.

Dems are really bad at messaging. Its why their most progressive policies pass every cycle but their politicians fail.
At this moment, you and I share similar views. I have no idea how this will turn out well for the ordinary American citizen.

Fortunately, even after all so many years, I still know very little about very little. That I have no idea how it will work out, does not mean that it won't.

My null hypothesis is that Americans living in their own country know more about it than myself. They have a clear vision of the country that they want to leave behind for their grandchildren, and that they have voted in a way that gives them the best chance to realise that vision.
 
I think we've hit a broken clock moment.
lol I've agreed with half of your posts or more over the last ten pages... I'm not a zealot, I jsut see the world very differently from most.
 
At this moment, you and I share similar views. I have no idea how this will turn out well for the ordinary American citizen.

Fortunately, even after all so many years, I still know very little about very little. That I have no idea how it will work out, does not mean that it won't.

My null hypothesis is that Americans living in their own country know more about it than myself. They have a clear vision of the country that they want to leave behind for their grandchildren, and that they have voted in a way that gives them the best chance to realise that vision.
most Americans can't write a two-page essay coherently... ignorance is a real problem. My textbooks spent 26 years of my life feeding me with propaganda so even the educated over here are ignorant of most of their own nation's history. Most Americans do not understand even the basics of how taxes and interest rates work and I'm no expert on US tax law, but it is obvious that tariffs will be tacked onto the price of the goods and thus is inflationary, depopulating your workforce will drive up wages (after a long time of businesses just failing from not having any workers) and increase inflation (first by lack of supply then by increased wages), decreasing taxes is inflationary as well, by driving demand a bit and increasing the amount of currency in the market. So, yea all the stupid crap they voted for is the exact opposite of what they want... it is really dumb. They voted for a bunch of ballot measures across the nation that are progressive at least (some straight leftist stuff) but then voted for politicians that will work to make their lives considerably worse. It is all vibes based and social media misinformation.

Currently there are three fascist, hyper-capitalist empires atm (US, China, Russia), all of which are odds with each other, and all of which believe the threat is existential. Last time you had multiple fascist empires (British, US vs Germany, Italy, Japan) at direct odds with each other it meant two world wars and ~100 million dead... there is an important difference now... on the current trajectory there will be no grandchildren. Anywhere.
 
At this moment, you and I share similar views. I have no idea how this will turn out well for the ordinary American citizen.

Fortunately, even after all so many years, I still know very little about very little. That I have no idea how it will work out, does not mean that it won't.

My null hypothesis is that Americans living in their own country know more about it than myself. They have a clear vision of the country that they want to leave behind for their grandchildren, and that they have voted in a way that gives them the best chance to realise that vision.
There is not one clear vision. There are at least 3: Fascist MAGA; a left wing liberal socialist combo; and the leave me alone and let me live my life (this may be the biggest). The electoral college is not a measure of how USians think.
 
it is obvious that tariffs will be tacked onto the price of the goods and thus is inflationary, depopulating your workforce will drive up wages (after a long time of businesses just failing from not having any workers) and increase inflation (first by lack of supply then by increased wages), decreasing taxes is inflationary as well, by driving demand a bit and increasing the amount of currency in the market.

This is true. But what other path is there if the US wants to have a policy of re-industralization? What possible path can be deployed that doesn't include also selective tariffs and an increase of the price of locally-produced goods?

You can argue about the exact shape of an industrial policy. But you cannot pretend that a country with a high cost of living can manufacture goods competitively with others with lower costs in an international market without tariffs. And you are experience enough to know that engineering follows industry, and science follows engineering. A de-industralized US will get more and more backwards in those fields over time. Selling "intellectual property" won't work because the rest of the world is quite capable of producing its own, that you very much. And there is nowhere to "climb in the value scale" when the base is thrown away. The whole thing crumbles without a foundation of material production. It can take a long, long time but it crumbles. Smaller countries can manage that decline better than larger ones, some (like the netherlands, for an example) can try speacializing in trade to compensate for deindustralization. The US is too big for that strategy. Its currentl specialization is "exporting dollars". The rest of the world is losing interest on the dollar. It would eventually, but certain recent moves (sanctions...) brought that moment forward.

The fact is that productivity in the US, mis-measured (over-estimanted!) though it is, has been declining since the great financial crisis. A make-believe economy where medical debt inflates GDP is just that, make believe. The hufe corporate bureaucracies spending their lives processing finance are not producting anything real. Your country is already in deep crisis, whatever the official statistics say. People there certainly know it.

So the possible paths to invert, arrest or at least slow decline involve reindustrialization by either:
- tariffs and increased costs of material goods
- lowering production sosts to again have competitive industries, for which it is also absolutely necessary to lower the cost of living (thereby wages) and the financial rents extracted on all kinds of industry

The first is much easier to do. The second is politically impossible to do without an outright revolution, and wholesale nationalization of healthcare, housing, education and finance. At the least.

If you ask me, I will of course tell you that ideally the US should go communist and make all those basics public goods, to be managed by the state or states, somehow to be chosen) and apportioned more or less equally to the population in need. But you know and I know that is not going to happen before a complete collapse of the current system.

So if the US wants any industry back, it will have to do tariffs as part of an industrial policy (part, won't work alone). Do not call ignorants to the voters who voted for the guy talking about tariffs. They see what is really happening and they're backing the only stategy they believe possible to at least attempt to adress it. I won't opine here whether it may ever work or not, that's make for a much longer argument, on economics and politics. What I am saying is that your fellow contrymen are not acting irrational. That majority was not acting on mis-information or against their own long-term interests. Those others who believe the economy is prosperous and nothing needs be done, the professional and manegarial classes who so far felt little pain, are the uninformed ones! Just because they had it good so far they think the decay won't thouch them in the future. They're wrong.

All this is true also of western of Europe, whose PMC have been aping the worse that the american ones did. Up to and including creating a phony "union" they would have be federal with a "constitution" (the people were smarter and voted it down), and copying political arrangements like the italians with their "partito democratico". The "western" countries most of us here live in, europeans and americans, have long been run by fools in their own bubble without a care for the future. When they "fail" they fail upwards or laterally, like the incapable former german fdefense minister promoted to EU commisssion president. They never get punished and collectively never learn anything. Why, theirs is the best possible world. Collectively, the people they rule seem at least recently more aware of the reality than the rulers. Despite massive doses of propaganda/circus deployed against the people daily on the media.

I think this is an instance of what Polanyi described as a society reacting in self-defence when capitalism is causing it to crumble. You got Trump, not an FDR. It will suck. But it's already part of the reaction. This reaction is always anti-iberal, because the rot is always politically caused by the liberal* I-got-mine-screw-you ideology.

*talking about the 19th century political liberalism, which can be pretty much summarized as the ideology capitalists had to create to face the new era of democratic politics.
 
At this moment, you and I share similar views. I have no idea how this will turn out well for the ordinary American citizen.

Fortunately, even after all so many years, I still know very little about very little. That I have no idea how it will work out, does not mean that it won't.

My null hypothesis is that Americans living in their own country know more about it than myself. They have a clear vision of the country that they want to leave behind for their grandchildren, and that they have voted in a way that gives them the best chance to realise that vision.
Most USians don't have any non-trivial idea about how their own country is - this isn't a USian trait, of course, it's typically human, though exacerbated by the US being a very populous country. They merely converse with their web of projections and fantasies, then are surprised at specific events - like Harris losing this election. Of course this is only one grouping; it doesn't refer much to traits of the individuals found in the grouping, differences between them are vast.
It's like having a kid, or a very old person, coming across a subject they can't grasp. If for some reason they can't back away, they won't miraculously understand what it's about but can very well replace the subject with something they can deal with, then express views about that replacement-object. Naturally it can never happen that those views have objective value.

There are also different (qualitatively) reasons for people to be invested in such subjects. For most, the reasons are personal and past a level very unrelated to the actual country; mostly factionalism as a drain for grievances. A good example of a deeper interest would be professor Lichtman's; he has to defend his 13 Keys model that now failed to predict the potus in a much less contested election than when it first had failed with Gore. For him it is about legacy.
 
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Uh Bird, he won the popular vote as well. Soooo maybe this is what USians think.
Not really. Not every eligible American/USian voted, so this isn't a clear view of what the country wants.

And this is a big problem, alongside all of the other big problems.
 
That is common; typically elections in almost all countries have only a (not that impressive) fraction of the eligible voters bothering to vote. It signifies apathy as well as dismissal of the parties.
 
Uh Bird, he won the popular vote as well. Soooo maybe this is what USians think.
~150 million Usians vote. Almost as many don't vote. If 75 million voted for Trump, 260 or so didn't. (you have to subtract the underage from that number, but it is still pretty big.)
 
Most Americans do not understand even the basics of how taxes and interest rates work and I'm no expert on US tax law, but it is obvious that tariffs will be tacked onto the price of the goods and thus is inflationary, depopulating your workforce will drive up wages (after a long time of businesses just failing from not having any workers) and increase inflation (first by lack of supply then by increased wages), decreasing taxes is inflationary as well, by driving demand a bit and increasing the amount of currency in the market.

Not those kinds of tariffs, according to Trump. He claims a 100% tariff is inflationary, but a 2000% tariff makes Volkswagen drop whatever they are doing and move manufacturing plant to the USA within a very short time span, so that they can avoid the exorbitant tariff. Because no end consumer will realistically pay the 2000% markup. That's the way he explained his understanding of tariffs to the Bloomberg interviewer very recently. I think this strategy can work in several cases. EU has been bled by many things, for a number of years, particularly by the rising Chinese electro car industry. VW is one the brink of bankruptcy with close to $200 bn in debt. For two years VW has been falling in value on the stock exchange. So, it might turn out that instead of playing a 2000% tariff game it will indeed be much easier to just relocate a couple of factories to the USA. Trump is planning to use EU auto sector weakness against it, winning new factories for the USA, new work places in these factories.
 
Volkswagen (and other german main companies) are already 1 million % dependent on what the US says, so I am sure they will agree to anything and everything "asked". It's not something Trump did, it became a magnitude more clear with Biden and expensive energy-dependence.
Their owners won't lose a cent either; already invest all in the US for the inevitable day.
 
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