Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

[Voidwalkin]

I have to echo @Senethro, the claim that this is primarily due to "online activists" and not how the forces of capital have acted over the last century or so to ruthlessly crush the anticapitalist left is not really worthy of serious discussion. When we add to this the fact that you are insisting we cannot move beyond capitalism as a matter of biological fact, we start to really get through the Discourse looking-glass.

A further layer of irony is added by the fact that you're ostensibly calling for a more material politics, but your diagnosis of the election is that Bad People on Twitter made the Democrats look CRAZY to normal people by talking about TRANS RIGHTS too much. Well, my diagnosis is that liberalism has no real toolkit for dealing with the inflation we got hit by during the Biden years. The only real solution to inflation that does not involve simply immiserating working people (kind of what Biden did, though I guess they do deserve credit for not causing a recession so far) involves government intervention in the economy in ways that certainly violate some of the sacred taboos of (neo)liberalism.

Which one of these seems more materialist? Which one lends itself to a politics that can unite nearly everyone in their common interest against the people inflicting misery on the rest of us by hiking prices to pad their profit margins?

Not sure why you're asking about inflation while downplaying the sum efforts of activists, given that those efforts confirm modes of thought that'll sculpt the politics surrounding any issue.

Modern left is traditional social liberal from the outset, and wants to pivot occasionally. It can't be so easily pivoted from, if it can be at all. Realistically, you won't get a material politics while those identities are used.

Outset, use of common traditional identity groups. White, black, trans, male, female, taking the side of the least powerful group. Very little push of poor by what is by necessity gonna be a people's movement. Masses consequently take traditional identity X, throw it into a heuristic, and await input of problem X.

Problem X? Inflation, for this example. It doesn't matter what your position on issue X is, by that point, how material it is or is not. White+inflation is gonna give a slightly different result than Hispanic+inflation. You will not have the broad support necessary to succeed no matter the means, democratic or otherwise.

There is such utter frailty to it. Any politician of sufficient charisma has opportunity to capture the gaps. And they occasionally do, of course. It shouldn't be surprising. Troops have been trained incorrectly, are unimpactful in the best of times, and often outright counterproductive, engaging on terms much more favorable to their foe than their own cause. Doctrine is flawed.

 

[Senethro]

Not sure why you're asking about inflation while downplaying the sum efforts of activists, given that those efforts confirm modes of thought that'll sculpt the politics surrounding any issue.

Modern left is traditional social liberal from the outset, and wants to pivot occasionally. It can't be so easily pivoted from, if it can be at all. Realistically, you won't get a material politics while those identities are used.

Outset, use of common traditional identity groups. White, black, trans, male, female, taking the side of the least powerful group. Very little push of poor by what is by necessity gonna be a people's movement. Masses consequently take traditional identity X, throw it into a heuristic, and await input of problem X.

Problem X? Inflation, for this example. It doesn't matter what your position on issue X is, by that point, how material it is or is not. White+inflation is gonna give a slightly different result than Hispanic+inflation. You will not have the broad support necessary to succeed no matter the means, democratic or otherwise.

There is such utter frailty to it. Any politician of sufficient charisma has opportunity to capture the gaps. And they occasionally do, of course. It shouldn't be surprising. Troops have been trained incorrectly, are unimpactful in the best of times, and often outright counterproductive, engaging on terms much more favorable to their foe than their own cause. Doctrine is flawed.

No.

You could magically have all the activists shut up, but that would not remove the perception of the online activists, which was what mattered, if it did in fact matter.

Its the same way you have Trump fans with sincerely held (or at least loudly professed) beliefs about the grooming and pedophilic blood drinking child murdering queers, without the actuality.

Better question would be why you believe them, and what an actual solution would be.

 

[Senethro]

Hind sight? I had been saying there was going to be a Trump landslide before Biden was forced out. I doubled that when they installed that idiot Harris as the nominee.

I'm sure you've said many things, and I'm also sure that at the time you couldn't have explained them.

 

[Farm Boy]

No.

You could magically have all the activists shut up, but that would not remove the perception of the online activists, which was what mattered, if it did in fact matter.

Its the same way you have Trump fans with sincerely held (or at least loudly professed) beliefs about the grooming and pedophilic blood drinking child murdering queers, without the actuality.

Better question would be why you believe them, and what an actual solution would be.

Because they watch the news(and each has a lived life). They know trusted men, even of the cloth, can be monsters. They know epstien didn't kill himself. They know nobody went to jail for 2008. They know some of these people were on thier side, and they're foolish enough to not want to consider that thier champions were on the island, too. Which is why the Trumps pardon the Blagojevichs.

Foe naming is effective(its the counterpoint to telling somebody that you're fond of them, which is also super effective). If people are constantly called racists and garbage, they will conclude not that they are racist and garbage, but that the other simply is willing to lie to try and destroy them(which is what we hope to do with racism).

So, this is big data online. What would Musk have to do? Algorithmically boost the most asinine leftists to as many people as possible? If he turns on those stooges when they aren't useful anymore, fat angry white guys in the Midwest for the next boost, right? Or, would hyper machismo work in next, considering?

If people are fighting over parentage*, and the beauty of American ethnic sharding and recombination, then one of our sharpest knives has twisted in our hands. Not that it's new.

*contrast with patronage

 

[Voidwalkin]

Its the same way you have Trump fans with sincerely held (or at least loudly professed) beliefs about the grooming and pedophilic blood drinking child murdering queers, without the actuality.

Insert traditional identity X, add the silo'd echo chambers of modern communications technology, and evolutions of belief like this are predictable.

No.

You could magically have all the activists shut up, but that would not remove the perception of the online activists, which was what mattered, if it did in fact matter.

Seems you've picked up pieces of my argument, but continue to interpret them with the lens of a modern leftist. I argue the glasses are bad.

Yes, in either case, activists talk, or don't, people are varying degrees of illiberal, liberal and will retain past memories of where activists engaged. Modern left has/is engaging on what could be called a spectrum of liberalism almost exclusively. It's all anybody sees regardless of where on that spectrum they sit, conservative or liberal or progressive.

I argue if the people are made to understand that class is their most relevant identity, which constant engagement on a spectrum of liberalism does not do, their assessments regarding the relevance/importance of material politics changes.

Modern left is, from the outset, forfeiting the disruptive power of class as identity, by extensive examination of the innumerable interactions of traditional identities. Doctrinal failure. It takes it all over and has very little unification potential. It consequently is vulnerable.

 

[Senethro]

Insert traditional identity X, add the silo'd echo chambers of modern communications technology, and evolutions of belief like this are predictable.

Seems you've picked up pieces of my argument, but continue to interpret them with the lens of a modern leftist. I argue the glasses are bad.

Yes, in either case, activists talk, or don't, people are varying degrees of illiberal, liberal and will retain past memories of where activists engaged. Modern left has/is engaging on what could be called a spectrum of liberalism almost exclusively. It's all anybody sees regardless of where on that spectrum they sit, conservative or liberal or progressive.

I argue if the people are made to understand that class is their most relevant identity, which constant engagement on a spectrum of liberalism does not do, their assessments regarding the relevance/importance of material politics changes.

Modern left is, from the outset, forfeiting the disruptive power of class as identity, by extensive examination of the innumerable interactions of traditional identities. Doctrinal failure. It takes it all over and has very little unification potential. It consequently is vulnerable.

You don't come across as sincere. If you want class, talk class. You don't need to insist that others must be silent. Thats a little bit threatening.

Talk class with the right and centre too. See where it gets you and understand the friction of the past decades.

Class talk is a threat to the establishment and its "absence" is a top-down phenomenon, not a bottom up one.

 

[aelf]

What do these jokers think happened to the "old left" anyway? Did the new left kill it? Of course not.

If it still worked back then, it wouldn't be 'dead', would it?

 

[Farm Boy]

Talk class with the right and centre too.

Hello, there.

 

[Kyriakos]

At least according to Jon Stewart (fwtiw), the dem political adds weren't woke, to the contrary they parroted gop positions (anti-illegal immigration, pro-police). Of course one should ask just why would a conservative voter choose your conservative-copy party instead of the original.

 

[Senethro]

What do these jokers think happened to the "old left" anyway? Did the new left kill it? Of course not.

If it still worked back then, it wouldn't be 'dead', would it?

Lol its like being framed for murder because some guy really believes the constructed boogeyman of the SJWs/cultural marxists/scary name du jour is real and has power and is in the forum with us right now.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Hello, there.

 

[Voidwalkin]

You don't come across as sincere. If you want class, talk class. You don't need to insist that others must be silent.

Talk class with the right and centre too. See where it gets you and understand the friction of the past decades.

Class talk is a threat to the establishment and its silence is a top-down phenomenon, not a bottom up one.

Major disconnect here.

The same workers who believe in loony conspiracies also generally support organization. I know such people personally. These are deeply illiberal people; they are not with you because of that, make no mistake about it.

They don't distinguish liberalism from leftism because...that distinction has effectively ceased to exist. I really don't understand why it's expected train people to do liberalism, do liberalism, do liberalism, then go OK, now do class politics, getting upset when they proceed to do more liberalism/illiberalism.

 

[Farm Boy]

So I need to make enough of an impression to float around all blue like to prepare for inevitable defeat or the course of  time and care.

Spoiler :

 

[Senethro]

Major disconnect here.

The same workers who believe in loony conspiracies also generally support organization. I know such people personally. These are deeply illiberal people; they are not with you because of that, make no mistake about it.

So organize them then. Why are you preaching illiberalism to us instead of leftism to them (using your terminology here)? What is the obstruction? If it will work, it will work, and we'll all benefit. It'll be an improvement on the current situation for sure.

But you're also insisting we have some kind of power to thwart you through some means you aren't really explaining.

They don't distinguish liberalism from leftism because...that distinction has effectively ceased to exist. I really don't understand why it's expected train people to do liberalism, do liberalism, do liberalism, then go OK, now do class politics, getting upset when they proceed to do more liberalism/illiberalism.

Don't understand at all what you're saying here in the second sentence.

 

[Senethro]

The topic of "Who murdered the Old/Real/Good/Economic/Class oriented Left?" is worthy of its own thread and an actual case being made, instead of everyone insisting some imaginary Bad Left did it.

 

[Snowygerry]

The same workers who believe in loony conspiracies also generally support organization. I know such people personally. These are deeply illiberal people; they are not with you because of that, make no mistake about it.

They solved that problem by creating a Catholic union here, ethically right but socially left.

Was a great success, became bigger than the socialist and liberal unions.

 

[Voidwalkin]

So organize them then. Why are you preaching illiberalism to us instead of leftism to them (using your terminology here)? What is the obstruction? If it will work, it will work, and we'll all benefit. It'll be an improvement on the current situation for sure.

Not like I didn't consider trying. Too many obstacles.

But you're also insisting we have some kind of power to thwart you through some means you aren't really explaining.

Don't understand at all what you're saying here in the second sentence.

They're related.

In classic leftist thinking, the labor union is amongst the first means by which workers assert their interest.

History, according to Marxist analysis is said to be the product of movements more than individuals. By this analysis, I recognize thay there has been a shift in movement away from the classical leftism which much more heavily emphasized class. It's happened before, in other countries. I'd argue the current Americanized left began in the university as an outgrowth of civil rights movements. The effects? Much more prominent discussion of identities and their links to economics are the observable results.

Read any of the major political subreddits. Compare the energy around organization vs matters pertaining to liberal/illiberal, fair or unfair treatment of ID group X. The observable disparity is striking, even on leftist hideaways.

People, especially average people, have no idea where to even begin on matters relating to organization, consequently. It's an abstract thing that workers generally agree is good, but they are without any of the technical knowledge necessary to move forward in consensus.

When I say "do liberalism", what is meant is that two generations of students have been taught those pro-social attitudes are prerequisites to the success of their career as well as the prime movers of inequality. They seek to persuade the illiberal and concepts like organization are basically sidenotes, and that's ignoring other non-political processes that create difficulties via greater atomization. They then turn around, expect the working class to do class politics, and are surprised when... nothing happens, except more debates on the merits(or lackof) of liberalism.

...the movement can't do anything else.

 

[Senethro]

Not like I didn't consider trying. Too many obstacles.


They're related.

In classic leftist thinking, the labor union is amongst the first means by which workers assert their interest.

History, according to Marxist analysis is said to be the product of movements more than individuals. By this analysis, I recognize thay there has been a shift in movement away from the classical leftism which much more heavily emphasized class. It's happened before, in other countries. I'd argue the current Americanized left began in the university as an outgrowth of civil rights movements. The effects? Much more prominent discussion of identities and their links to economics are the observable results.

Read any of the major political subreddits. Compare the energy around organization vs matters pertaining to liberal/illiberal, fair or unfair treatment of ID group X. The observable disparity is striking, even on leftist hideaways.

People, especially average people, have no idea where to even begin on matters relating to organization, consequently. It's an abstract thing that workers generally agree is good, but they are without any of the technical knowledge necessary to move forward in consensus.

When I say "do liberalism", what is meant is that two generations of students have been taught those pro-social attitudes are prerequisites to the success of their career as well as the prime movers of inequality. They seek to persuade the illiberal and concepts like organization are basically sidenotes, and that's ignoring other non-political processes that create difficulties via greater atomization. They then turn around, expect the working class to do class politics, and are surprised when... nothing happens, except more debates on the merits(or lackof) of liberalism.

...the movement can't do anything else.

I appreciate your sincerity and effort through all this, but I'm just not seeing it, so we might as well save both our energy.

I don't see the inverse correlation between these two things. The insistence that one requires the removal of the other (and perhaps even sacrifices from them) looks very confused.

Hence I advise you spend your own energy on actual promotion of class issues, not demotion of so called "identity politics", and wish you every success.

 

[Lexicus]

Once upon a time in America a guy said this:
"We’re going to fight racism not with racism, but we’re going to fight with solidarity. We say we’re not going to fight capitalism with black capitalism, but we’re going to fight it with socialism."

Was this man...
A) drowned out by identity-obsessed campus activists, or
B) assassinated by the Chicago PD?

 

[Voidwalkin]

Once upon a time in America a guy said this:
"We’re going to fight racism not with racism, but we’re going to fight with solidarity. We say we’re not going to fight capitalism with black capitalism, but we’re going to fight it with socialism."

Was this man...
A) drowned out by identity-obsessed campus activists, or
B) assassinated by the Chicago PD?

Couldn't ya have found an example from any of the past 5 decades?

Sorta the point.