European military (in)capabilities - why is Europe so "weak"?

Winner

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One of the burning issues and a topic of almost every US-EU political debate is the apparent military weakness of Europe, as perceived in comparison to the US. I often hear overly simplified explanations of this condition, usually blaming the alleged 'softness' or 'cowardice' of Europeans.

So let's examine the sources of our military weakness, without prejudices and foolish pride:

a) Structural differences between the US (UK) and continental European armed forces.

During the Cold war, a 'division of labour' between the US and continental European armies was set up. European armies were built and trained to withstand, slow down and eventually stop a massive Soviet land invasion of Western Europe. To do this, they were equipped with large amounts of high-tech armored vehicles (tanks, AFV's, APC's, artillery) and relied on conscription. On the other hand, cont. European armies lacked the capabilites to deploy forces oversees, in other words, the power projection capabilities so important in today's world.
US, on the other hand, relied especially on this - their task in any war with Soviet Union was to move as many soldiers to Europe as they could as quickly as possible.
After the end of the Cold war, this 'division of labour' left the US perfectly prepared for a new kind of tasks we face in the today's world.

b) Inability to reform and increase military spending

Military spending is often considered to be the sole source of European weakness. That's not accurate, unfortunately. EU countries spend about 40% of what the US gives to its military. If that also meant that Europe has 40% of the US military capabilities, it would be fine, unfortunately, that's not true. At present, the estimates vary, but range from 5 to 20% of the US capabilities.
The problem lies in the obsolete structure of the European militaries and in the fact they are still separate - 25 different militaries with independent command structures. Moreover, European armies are still acting like the Cold War was still on - EU countries have more than 2 million soldiers in arms and large amounts of heavy armored vehicles. In fact, EU would probably be able to start an invasion of Russia, but is completely unable to send more than 60.000 troops to a peacekeeping mission.
Of course, the low military expenditures are a problem, but they don't fully explain the lack of European power projection capacities. The true answer is that European militaries need profound and deep reform, large reductions of unnecessary personel and equipment and shift to modern ways of command and communication. With reasonable military spending, European armies are able to sharply increase the number of troops they can deploy, they just need to rethink the priorities.

c) Cynism of the European political elites and invibiality of the welfare state

I dare to say that European leaders know all this stuff I am telling you here. They know what needs to be done, but they don't do it, because it is not in their interest. Military expenditures are the prime target of most of budget cuts - every time politicians need some money, usually to keep the collapsing welfare states going, they take it from the military. In this situation, any reforms that need money to be finished in reasonable time are out of question.
Many Americans say that Europe is weak because Europeans got soft. That's not true. If you look at opinion polls, you will find that the views of both Americans and Europeans on the issues of world politics are usually very similar. Europeans are not much less willing to use force to protect their interests, they just don't have the elites willing to listen to them. Military operations are not on top of their agenda.

To be self-critical, I must admit that the welfare state and near socialism that consumes a huge part of EU-member's budgets is a great problem, especially for the future. Without getting rid of that, we won't have the extra money to fund military capabilities to support our global interests. Still, we should be able to build forces large enough to keep the peace in Europe's backyard without any help from outside.

One final note - Germany is the most important country. They have enormous potential, but they have to reform their military and increase their spending. Germany has to take its deal of responsibility and stop being afraid of its own military.
 
Well to be fair, several northern countries are reforming at top speed, and are actually able and willing to send a lot of troops compared to their seize. 1200+ men for a 5 million country is pretty good. Plus UK and France got some true power projection capabilities. Though French policy regarding the use of their army is rather... odd. Im not even sure they understand it themselves...

It's Germany as you say, Italy, Spain etc. that needs to change.


Edit: good post, btw winner.
 
Well to be fair, several northern countries are reforming at top speed, and are actually able and willing to send a lot of troops compared to their seize. 1200+ men for a 5 million country is pretty good. Plus UK and France got some true power projection capabilities. Though French policy regarding the use of their army is rather... odd. Im not even sure they understand it themselves...

It's Germany as you say, Italy, Spain etc. that needs to change.

UK, Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands are doing fine. French are as you say, ambiguous. The rest, especially Germany, needs a change.

In the long run, we will have to start thinking about building a common army. Like it or not, it is nonsense to have 25 general staffs instead of one.
 
Yes you nailed it Winner! :goodjob:

I just don't know how often I have yelled: "Unite the european military force" in my social circle :lol:
 
You should make your own show. "EU Mythbusters""

I think your Cold War argument makes sense.

The Peace keeping thing is a bit more complicated for me, I don't think I'll ever get that fully. Why EU countrie can't contribute more.

Also, Europe and the U.S. should help to even out contributions to the UN. Peacekeeping missions. The US will be needing an increase in troops for the War on Terror.
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The Socialist Welfare state is going to haunt you for a while though. I'm glad that the US hasn't crossed that threshhold.

I don't like that common army thing, makes me a little suspicious. Call me paranoid.
 
Some good points made there - the structures that were reasonable pre 1990 are still in place partly and the multitude of command structures really should be targets to reform.

I'm not sure I like points b) and c),I don't see why we should increase military spending at all. I would simply redistribute the money away from divisions like artillery which have little/no value for operations like kosovo/afghanistan. Furthermore I don't see how the welfare state fits into all of this. The working population who have payed for the pensions of the elder have a strong claim to getting a solid pension themselves. I'm not sure how it is in other countries, but money that goes into pension funds are not taxes which are at the governments disposal. There is no way they could simply redistribute it towards the military.

About the German army - I was part of it for 9 months and the problem isn't the lack of spending but the soldiers themselves. Loads of people just going there for a safe workplace or because they're loosers in civil life.
edit: structual reform away from the conscription army is essential aswell of course
 
The biggest issue is the tolerance of the European economies toward military spending. They just cannot afford the things that will push them over the edge and into the area of power projection.

There is a serious lack of naval power and airlift capability. There appears to be little immediate requirement for airlift capability due the fact that these nations are small. They don't need to transport forces over long distances unlike the United States, the fourth largest nation on Earth. With regard to naval power, most nations are either landlocked our lack the access to blue waters in order to justify a large fleet of ships.

The cornerstone of any power projection on the high seas is the aircraft carrier. It is an expensive acquisition. There is only one true aircraft carrier in the European fleet, the French Charles de Gualle, which is a woefully underpowered aircraft carrier that uses nuclear reactors meant for a smaller ballistic missile submarine. It can only deploy 40-some aircraft, one at a time, at that. The rest of Europe's carrier force comprises a half dozen or so VTOL and helicopter carriers which are useless in power projection.

Furthermore, the European navies lack any sort of surface fleet capable of projecting force onshore. The entire new fleet of European destroyers is almost entirely geared toward Anti-Submarine Warfare and Air-defense and the frigates follow suit. There are zero cruisers or other large warships in the fleet.

The United Kingdom and France both have new carrier designs forthcoming, but these are still small, home-water defense carriers that are mostly incapable of scaring anyone.

In the end, it is simply a case of not being able to afford it and knowing that the United States knows that whatever is in Europe's best interest is ultimately in the best interest of the United States. Europe therefor relies on the US to enforce its interests abroad and rightfully so. We have done so without failing, for more than 50 years now.
 
I don't even know if the US would consider it, or if any European nations would be interested, but the US has a lot of ships in mothballs or close to retirement. They may not be cutting edge anymore, but hey...

Example:
The USS Kitty Hawk, an aircraft carrier,, is about to be decommissioned. Talk about instant force projection capability.
 
In the end, it is simply a case of not being able to afford it and knowing that the United States knows that whatever is in Europe's best interest is ultimately in the best interest of the United States. Europe therefor relies on the US to enforce its interests abroad and rightfully so. We have done so without failing, for more than 50 years now.
I think that the point really comes down to the two different views of the military in NATO.
Euro: The military is to defend our country from invasion.
USA: The military must be able to fight a war anywhere on the planet.

So in reality Europe has overtaken the old isolationist stance of the US.
 
In the end I think it all comes down to this: Europe has figured out that it is cheaper to bribe an enemy, than to spend money on the military.
 
You should make your own show. "EU Mythbusters""

I think your Cold War argument makes sense.

The Peace keeping thing is a bit more complicated for me, I don't think I'll ever get that fully. Why EU countrie can't contribute more.

We can't. We simply don't have the transport capacities to move them and to support them. Also, they don't have adequate equipment - we have plenty of tanks, artillery and other stuff designed to kill Russians, but we don't have a lot of soldiers capable of being send to this kind of operations.

Also, Europe and the U.S. should help to even out contributions to the UN. Peacekeeping missions. The US will be needing an increase in troops for the War on Terror.
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God forbid! UN peacekeeping missions is the surest way to let your troops get killed. Or to let them watch how people are massacred, as happened in Rwanda and Bosnia.

They need to have the right to enforce peace, not just to observe peace.

The Socialist Welfare state is going to haunt you for a while though. I'm glad that the US hasn't crossed that threshhold.

I don't like that common army thing, makes me a little suspicious. Call me paranoid.

You Americans should support that. It will make your lives easier. It is not Europe who will be your enemy in the future.
 
I don't even know if the US would consider it, or if any European nations would be interested, but the US has a lot of ships in mothballs or close to retirement. They may not be cutting edge anymore, but hey...

Example:
The USS Kitty Hawk, an aircraft carrier,, is about to be decommissioned. Talk about instant force projection capability.

The ship is likely to be in the reserve fleet for a few years and then turned into a Museum. Furthermore, it will only be decommisioned in 2009.
 
I can't see a situation where Sweden would need 80 000 soldiers. Armies are expensive and never get used. I have never understood why the US needs 4 000 000 soldiers.

Our country is so much larger to defend. Plus Sweden is not burdened with the duty of being the world police nor providing for the welfare around the world.
 
Very true.



Very false. Screw the navy and carriers. You Americans already provide those. What we need is men and women, willing to put their life on the line on the ground.

What if your enemy eventually becomes 'You Americans?'
 
Frankly it's also because we don't actually need large military forces as we got over the idea of needing them after the second world war. Why do we need such a large military build up when we don't actually plan to impose any military threat to the countries either close to us or in the East? Let the US do that, they seem to like spending their money on it, and they seem to like fighting ultimatelly unsatifactory campaigns.

Let's face it if war was working out so well, we'd be building them up like no bodies business, hey England did it rather successfully once, but since many of the wars we've fought recently have lead nowhere, where is the need? It's hard to justify something that leads to an enormous expenditure with little or no results. Contraversial opinion, perhaps misguided, but a nice little entree to the debate :)
 
Our country is so much larger to defend. Plus Sweden is not burdened with the duty of being the world police nor providing for the welfare around the world.
And why exactly is USA burdened with this?

Is it not time to kill the "City upon a hill" myth?
 
The Socialist Welfare state is going to haunt you for a while though. I'm glad that the US hasn't crossed that threshhold.
It's called social democracy, actually. And Denmark and Norway, two of the "good guys" regarding this topic, are also two countries with the highest taxes and the best economies.

It's not black and white.
 
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