Evidence for creationism

[sophie]

Simple: all flightless species of animals that Noah knew of.

Side note: I'm an atheist.

But then where did all the millions of species that Noah didn't know of come from? This argument makes absolutely no sense.

 

[cardgame]

evolution

 

[ParkCungHee]

You know, if you actually believe that there was two spiders, and they diversified via evolution, you now have to explain how come evolution has slowed down dramatically throughout recorded history. Lets go with 1600 as the time at which we start identifying spiders. And 2,304 BC as the date of the flood. That's 3904 years, in which we saw the emergence and success of over 40,000 species of Spider, the emergence of 1,000 new species a year. If you include one kind of beetle that's the emergence of 10,000 species every year. You'd have to demonstrate or explain the lack of such a pace. Since evidently 'Microevolution' proceeds at a pace much faster then Darwinian evolution, one has to wonder why it stops at the family or order level. If we can see a single pair of animal deversify into 40,000 species in 3,900 years, why can't one of those species be a harvestman, considering the dizzying variety of animals which are "spiders".

 

[Tacitusitis]

I presume here is where "Kind" differs from species. I suspect there were only two spiders on the ark period. And only two dogs, two cats, two monkeys, exc. and microevolution took care of the rest.

Why would there need to be two dogs and two cats if there were only two spiders.

Spiders constitute in the order Araeneae which has about forty thousand species, dogs and cats are both in the order Carnivora which has about two hundred species.

Many spiders are more distant genetically from each other than dogs are from cats.

So if only a pair of spiders are enough to "microevolve" all forty thousand species, then a pair of Carnivora, say, two dogs, should be enough to "microevolve" the only 200-ish species in this family including cats, dogs, mongooses, hyenas, bears, weasels, raccoons, skunks, walruses, sea lions and seals.

unless you think there were 2 of each of those animals on the ark in which case why only 2 spiders

It sounds a little like you're making this up as you're going along OH WAIT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THIS IS

 

[Trev]

There seems to be too much variation in spiders for it to all be the result of one kind, quite possibly there where maybe 10 - 50 kinds on Noah's ark rather than one kind and the 40,000 or so species came from those 10 - 50 kinds. In the first century or so after the flood, the spiders and other life would have spread rapidly from Asia to the rest of the world, each mating pair would have pretty well isolated themselves from others of their kind, which means that many mating pairs from the first and second generations after the flood would have founded separate species with only a subset of the DNA from the original pairs kept on the ark. Likewise for all other insect, mammal, bird, reptile species etc. So there would have been an extremely rapid diversification of species for a few decades and centuries, followed by a stagnation once life had spread to all land areas of the planet.

 

[Tacitusitis]

This is why the thread is futile, you debunk the dumb and they respond with more dumb. Like the idea that spiders are monogamous mating pairs that go everywhere together. Someone's knowledge of evolutionary genetics draws a little too heavily from Charlotte's Web

 

[Vordeo]

Well the first I heard of this theory was in a David Gemmell novel. But anyway here are some examples of analysis done:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/noah_com.htm
http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html (this one from a creationist website trying to make out that the Biblical flood was true because floods are common in mythology, the fact that they say it's essentially the same as the Babylonian account doesn't ring any alarm bells though. I wonder why?)
In fact the whole first page gives examples of almost perfect similarities between both flood myths.

Incidentally, the Great Deluge story (complete with only one family surviving) also exists in Hindu and Greek mythology. Those stories also share a number of similarities with Noah's story.

 

[kulade]

Why didn't the Egyptians notice the global flood? Persistent buggers just kept right on building monuments all the way through, it would seem.

Ancient non-Hebrews just never seemed to understand what was going on around them!

Noah's flood. Hilarious. The only thing that would be more lulzy is if Bible-believers still embraced the Tower of Babel story as the origin point of all languages. What's next, are they going to hold the Revelation of John as literal truth?

Besides the sheer ridiculousness of not only the number of animals that would be on the ark and the enormous distances that ostriches, koalas (always feeding on eucalyptus) and polar bears would travel we have to consider that after 150 days of rain and who-knows how long during the dissipation of water, the erosion and molding of the land was apparently not sufficient enough to alter the course Tigris and Euphrates . Good times, good times tho.

 

[Vordeo]

Incidentally, here's proof of Evolution.

Spoiler :

 

[Berzerker]

There seems to be too much variation in spiders for it to all be the result of one kind, quite possibly there where maybe 10 - 50 kinds on Noah's ark rather than one kind and the 40,000 or so species came from those 10 - 50 kinds. In the first century or so after the flood, the spiders and other life would have spread rapidly from Asia to the rest of the world, each mating pair would have pretty well isolated themselves from others of their kind, which means that many mating pairs from the first and second generations after the flood would have founded separate species with only a subset of the DNA from the original pairs kept on the ark. Likewise for all other insect, mammal, bird, reptile species etc. So there would have been an extremely rapid diversification of species for a few decades and centuries, followed by a stagnation once life had spread to all land areas of the planet.

or maybe the Flood didn't really cover the tallest mountains, or the world The Bible (and mesopotamian) version describes a wave(s) inundating the land - the fountains of the deep refers to the ocean surging onto the land. And if this is related to the rising seas as the ice age ended then maybe part of the Antarctic ice sheet slipped off into the water, or an impact in the Indian Ocean... A Tlingit legend dates the Great Flood to 14 kya, thats close to a known flood called meltwater pulse 1a resulting from the partial break up of the southern ice sheet as the ice age ended, or causing it to end.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

This is why the thread is futile, you debunk the dumb and they respond with more dumb. Like the idea that spiders are monogamous mating pairs that go everywhere together. Someone's knowledge of evolutionary genetics draws a little too heavily from Charlotte's Web

This.

You counter with science and get: "Well, probably ..." or "There must have been ..." or "They could have ...". Which is, say it with me children, made up. It's reasoning drawn from the butt to justify hanging on to a belief.

It shows two standards. On the one hand they expect to see a amoebae change into a deer before they even consider evolution a possibility let alone proof. On the other hand they accept off the top of the head reasoning as rock solid.

 

[Arakhor]

There seems to be too much variation in spiders for it to all be the result of one kind, quite possibly there where maybe 10 - 50 kinds on Noah's ark rather than one kind and the 40,000 or so species came from those 10 - 50 kinds.

Please point out the exact passage where it says that Noah took "maybe 10-50 kinds". He only took 14 oxen after all.

 

[carlosMM]

First question: I think the accepted year is 3,000 BC (Or something) with 35,000 slaves. I accept that conclusion.

Second Question: No idea. What does that have to do with it?

Third Question: Not sure exactly, if it means species or genus or what. Not really sure. I just know there is no evolution amongst the higher taxa.

Follow-up to 1) When was Noah’s flood?
2) any guess? There are sources, you know…. Wikipedia says 70.000 to 300.000 (based on Holland, Tom (2006). Persian Fire: The First World Empire and the Battle for the West. New York: Doubleday). Is that a figure to take seriously?
You’ll see what this has to do with YEC soon enough – patience!

3) So you have no idea what you are talking about, neither about evolution NOR creation, but you know what works and what not?
Positively weird

OK, let’s try a different approach, maybe you know about creation, just not about biology: please list as many animals (mammals) as you can that were present on the ark. That way we should be able to deduce how you think „kind“ should be defined.

I presume here is where "Kind" differs from species. I suspect there were only two spiders on the ark period. And only two dogs, two cats, two monkeys, exc. and microevolution took care of the rest.

That's utter nonsense, because it would require supermeganuke-evolution between the fllod and now to explain the huge number of species we have today. Why was evolution so enormously fast, then suddenly slowed to a near-total halt after a few centuries (when written records came around)?

 

[Askthepizzaguy]

1. God spoke to Noah
2. Noah, an elderly man of over 600 years of age, builds the largest wooden ship ever known until that point in "history"
3. Noah dials up Aqua Man, and learns how to "summon" creatures.
4. A male and female (not enough genetic diversity to allow for a species to be successful....) of each "kind" makes the journey to Noah's ark by ships of their own. (God supplied these ships)
4a. Or, Noah discovered America, and was the first person to circumnavigate the globe, and he personally explored more territory, trapping gigantic animals, and discovering ALL THE SPECIES that exist today, that he was the world's greatest explorer and zoologist.
5. Too bad about all the plants. The entire world was covered with saltwater and 99.999 percent of all plantlife died, and there was nothing left for the animals to eat when they got off the ark.
6. But God made the plants come back to life, because he's God.
7. And God allowed the animals to get it on with their brothers and sisters and mother, because he's God, and if he's down with severe inbreeding, that's awesome.
8. All the diversity within a species happened between the last 6000-5000 years or so, and none of that was captured in cave paintings. That's not micro-evolution or macroevolution, that's an INSANE amount of evolution, before history could have recorded it.

Remember, no ancient culture ever noticed such rapid diversity happening within species. Such diversity would have been called miracles and an entirely new Bible would have been written about it, and it would have everyone on Earth a believer in God or atomic radiation.

So, all the species differentiation happened within the span of a dozen generations. Because God works in mysterious ways, and this all happened AFTER Noah's flood.

Which is really strange, because we have a written account of the Noah flood.

So.....


Doesn't THAT mean....

That they could have written down how a pair of spiders turned into a thousand different kinds of spiders? Or how a pair of dogs turned into the 200 different species of dog-like creatures?

Jesus, it's almost like if you believe in the Bible, you don't even know this, but you believe in evolution happening right before human eyes, on a scale that doesn't even come close to how fast scientists say evolution can take place.

Obviously, because God works miracles, so even GIGANTIC LOGICAL CONTRADICTIONS don't affect your faith in this process or the lack of ANY biblical accounts of ANY OF THIS happening.



So, take this one step further.

If you believe all these species differentiated in a few hundred years after the Flood, repopulated the earth, and crossed the seas and landed on islands by ship (or by the HAND OF GOD) and formed little clusters of genomes which made it appear as though they hadn't had contact with other land masses in millions of years (but it's all just a trick to test our faith) and there are reasons the Bible doesn't mention any of this (God works in VERY mysterious ways) but you don't believe in evolution (even though, in order for any of this to make any sense, which is a laugh in an of itself) then that means you:

• Don't believe in evolution
• Don't believe what the Bible says
• Believe things happened that the Bible WOULD HAVE mentioned, but did not
• In order for your story to make sense, you believe all recent evolution happened within a few hundred years, therefore you believe in evolution
• Therefore you believe in a kind of evolution that is radically more rapid than what science says
• Explain all these contradictions by saying "GOD DID IT"
• Therefore God used super-evolutionary processes and none of the prophets ever wrote about it
• Therefore what you actually believe is something you made up just now.
• But you insist that it's totally the truth, in spite of ALL SCIENCE, ALL LOGIC, AND ALL KNOWN RELIGIONS BESIDES YOUR OWN FANTASIES.

And you wonder why we think you're crazy.




You believe evolution isn't real, but it did happen between Noah's flood and written history, even though Noah's flood is, according to you, part of written history. And, you also believe all animals can swim or build arks of their own, and that they appear to be in isolated gene pools that are millions of years apart but they really are only a few thousand years apart, and that there are dinosaurs that lived with mankind between 6000 years ago (creation) and the flood (5000 years ago?) and all died off due to the flood but it doesn't say anything about Noah not being allowed to take dinosaurs onto the ark, and it doesn't mention dinosaurs anywhere else in the bible, and they would have been around during the time of Noah, he literally would have been running into them considering he crossed the entire world finding all manner of other species, but specifically avoided catching dinosaurs, even though God didn't tell Noah not to bring dinosaurs along with him, and let's not forget that the plants that existed before "the flood" also existed after the flood, by God's MAGIC, even though the ground would have been ruined because of saltwater and erosion, but by GOD'S MAGIC it didn't happen that way, and Noah remembered to bring along two seeds of every kind, so he planted all the trees that died off during the flood like JOHNNY APPLESEED or they survived being under the ocean for many many weeks.


This is the stuff you believe because evolution, the thing that has several billion times more evidence and logical connective reasoning, is too unbelievable.

The stuff that you believe, because you won't believe in evolution, is a Frankenstein monster of lies upon lies upon more made up childish lies, and at the end of the day, the only way to make THAT story make any sense is to....









drumroll please.....












BELIEVE IN MEGA-SUPER-DUPER EVOLUTION!!!





Bottom line: You fail.

You fail hard.

And you deserve to fail hard, because you're trying, very very hard, to not believe in about a billion facts so that you can believe in one big lie, because:

You can't bear the thought of there being no God.


So the source of all this failure is fear. When you fear death and a world without God, someone suggesting anything even tangentially related to your mythology that might be contradictory, you get angry and you deny everything that they say. And when you can't get your way, you begin hating those who don't believe the same as you do, by calling them Godless, lost souls who will burn forever and ever in hell, and they deserve it. And, just a couple hundred years ago, you made them all suffer for denying God. And even today, people put on trial for heresy and blasphemy in some parts of the world, and they are jailed or put to death.


So what does this all mean? Ignorance leads to fear.


Fear leads to anger.
Anger leads to hate.
Hate leads to suffering.

Once again, Yoda is closer to reality than religion is, because at least he's describing a real phenomenon.

If you believed that Yoda was real, people would laugh and say that's nonsense.
If you believed that Santa Claus was real, people would say that's childish, or you need to get your head examined.

But you believe that the Noah story and the Bible are literally true, and evolution is therefore false, and you've invented a GIGANTIC pile of entirely made-up pretend nonsense to try to explain how that's possible, and even in order to believe all of that nonsense, you have to believe evolution is real.


You fail.


/thread over.

 

[Chukchi Husky]

Noah's flood. Hilarious. The only thing that would be more lulzy is if Bible-believers still embraced the Tower of Babel story as the origin point of all languages.

They still do, at least in England. The similarities between English and German and the fact that, if they tried carefully, someone speaking Spanish can understand Italian is proof that the Tower of Babel story actually happened.

 

[Gigaz]

They still do, at least in England. The similarities between English and German and the fact that, if they tried carefully, someone speaking Spanish can understand Italian is proof that the Tower of Babel story actually happened.

But that is an arguement against the Tower of Babel-story. When god makes people spontaneously speak a new language, you'd expect no similarities between the languages. But the fact that some languages are similar and others aren't is an evidence for the slow evolution of languages.

 

[Haseri]

No, the reason English and German are similar is because they are both Anglo-Saxon languages (Anglo is where we get the Eng in England).

Spanish and Italian are similiar because they are based on Latin.

Also, well done, askthepizzaguy.

 

[Arakhor]

Actually, they're both Germanic languages, but yes. Spanish and Italian are both Romance languages, derived from Latin.

 

[Haseri]

Yeah, that's what I meant. >.>

 

[El_Machinae]

They still do, at least in England. The similarities between English and German and the fact that, if they tried carefully, someone speaking Spanish can understand Italian is proof that the Tower of Babel story actually happened.

The fact that British people speak with Spanish people is basically a slap in God's face, given that He did the Tower of Babel for a reason

If God wanted us to speak to people born into a different language, He wouldn't have done the Tower of Babel!