Expanded Great People Names (EGPNs)

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Just because Cao Cao does not have a leaderhead does not mean he should be downgraded from being a leader to a mere general.
It is simply because, there are too many kings and emperors in history of China.

1) Cao Cao was never a King. He held the position of Chancellor.
He was only posthumously called an Emperor by his son, Cao Pi.
2) The language is telling. "Mere" general implies that it is a position not worth having or held in esteem.
For one, I don't believe that classifying Cao Cao as a GG is in any way, demeaning his achievements as a leader.

Xiang Yu overthrew the whole Qin Dynasty, yet everyone else on the list is better?
Who on the list did a bigger feat than that?

The Battle of Julu was impressive by all means, but the Qin were already crumbling by the time of Xiang Yu's ascent.

Guan Yu is worshipped for his loyalty, nothing to do with divinity.
In fact, he still died in the ROTK novel after being captured.
Just because Shu is weak does not mean all Shu Generals are weak.

While that is all completely true, if you haven't noticed, for China,
all of the GGs are laid out and organized by era.
As Cao Cao is included for the Three Kingdoms Era, there isn't room for a contemporary.

That being said, the only GG I would contest is Hou Junji; I'd swap him out for Koxinga or Yuan Chonghuan,
but with the former, it's hilarious to have him on the same list with Shi Lang and with the latter, his role overlaps too much with Yue Fei.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

^ Hou Junji is seriously underrated because he was executed for treason. Although his mentor Li Jing probably deserves the place better.

Koxinga is more Japanese than Chinese no matter how I'd like to pretend otherwise.

Yuan Chonghuan is one too many tragic character. Yue Fei is already there.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Hou Junji is seriously underrated because he was executed for treason. Although his mentor Li Jing probably deserves the place better.

I suggest Li Shiji for Tang myself.

Koxinga is more Japanese than Chinese no matter how I'd like to pretend otherwise.

I would disagree with this. Just to compare and contrast, look at Koxinga and Wu Qingyuan (Go Seigen).
Wu was born in the Republic of China but was sent to live in Japan at a young age to hone his Weiqi/Go play.
Considering that he spent the remainder of his formative years and his adult life there (well, his whole life), I'd consider him more Japanese than Chinese, if anything.
This parallels with Koxinga, who was born in Japan and spent his earliest years there, but was brought to Ming China at a similarly early age.
The only difference is, Wu wasn't involved in politics, and Koxinga became a Ming patriot.

Yuan Chonghuan is one too many tragic character. Yue Fei is already there.

Agreed. Although I suggested these generals mostly because I feel Ming needs some good representation in the GG department, but it's no big loss if we omit them.

 

[Leoreth]

Many of the current GGs were also rulers of their respective countries, some of them go back to BtS even. That's kind of hard to avoid considering how warfare was conducted in the Middle Ages.

By the way, I think John of Gaunt and Edward the Black Prince could work as merchant and general for England respectively. Also, I've realized that Gonzalo de Cordoba (El Gran Capitan) is notably missing from the list of Spanish generals.

 

[platyping]

So your suggestion is that instead of a mere general he should be downgraded to nothing?


The Qin collapsed on itself. Xiang Yu just happened to be born around that time period.

If you wish to know the people most directly responsible for Qin's collapse, read 史記·陳涉世家


Are you really from Singapore? Is Chinese history, or any history, taught this poorly there? Or is it just you?

I mean seriously. Do you really believe Guan Yu is a 2.16 meters tall red skinned giant from 3rd century CE? Or anything else you read about in fiction?

1) Cao Cao was not a Emperor while he was alive, but he definitely held that title after his death.
There are tons of Emperors in China not listed in Civ, yet none of them appeared as Great People beside Cao Cao anyway.
Does that mean that Liu Bang or Tang Taizong not appearing as Leaders or Great People mean they are downgraded to nothing?

2) Qin collapsed. There are millions of people in China. So why is he the one who did it if he just "happens to be there"

3) If my history is poor, your comprehension is just as good.
When did I ever mention anything about Guan Yu as a good general because he is tall and red skinned?

 

[Leoreth]

It should be noted that my lists of GPs were compiled from different sources and while I always tried to check every entry of its worthiness of inclusion, it's much harder to check whether someone who's not included should be. This is especially true in areas where my historical knowledge doesn't include the involved individuals.

So if rulers are missing from the Chinese GP list, it's more an indication of the preferences of the original creator of the list than mine. I think rulers are okay in general, only those already included as LH should be avoided to help immersion.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Does that mean that Liu Bang or Tang Taizong not appearing as Leaders or Great People mean they are downgraded to nothing?

Taizong is a LH. I suggest you play DoC first before posting on these forums.

And yes, Liu Bang is downgraded to nothing in DoC. Stating the obvious here but you asked for it.

2) Qin collapsed. There are millions of people in China. So why is he the one who did it if he just "happens to be there"

Go back to school if you want an answer to that. I don't get paid to teach you.

When did I ever mention anything about Guan Yu as a good general because he is tall and red skinned?

Because the source that claims Guan Yu to be a good general also claims that he is 2.16 meters tall, red skinned, and wields a weapon that weighs 40 lbs with one hand. The same source also claims he was able to open his eyes weeks after he was executed by beheading.

It is inconsistent of you to (as you seem to imply) dismiss some of the claims in your source while insisting the rest of them to be true. But again, most religious people do exactly that. If Guan Yu is a god to you, it's perfectly understandable. But I'm not adding a deity to a list of great people's names.

 

[soul-breathing]

Some more Generals for China(since I am a Chinese...)

Han Xin(Western Han, between Bai Qi and Wei Qing)

Ma Yuan(Eastern Han, between Wei Qing and Cao Cao)

Xie An(Eastern Jin, between Cao Cao and Li Jing)

Yuan Chonghuan(Ming, between Yue Fei and Shi Lang)

And it seems difficult to download it from Depositfiles in China, could you change it to SourceForge? With EDCNs too...

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Some more Generals for China(since I am a Chinese...)

Han Xin(Western Han, between Bai Qi and Wei Qing)

Ma Yuan(Eastern Han, between Wei Qing and Cao Cao)

Xie An(Eastern Jin, between Cao Cao and Li Jing)

Yuan Chonghuan(Ming, between Yue Fei and Shi Lang)

And it seems difficult to download it from Depositfiles in China, could you change it to SourceForge? With EDCNs too...

I already suggested Yuan Chonghuan.
He's a great general, no doubt, but his inclusion has too much overlap and parallels Yue Fei too much.
Hmm...well, if we could expand all the categories for China by 2 to have parity with the American catalogue of GPs, then I think it'd be justifiable.
Can you come up with some extra scientists, merchants, etc?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Some more Generals for China(since I am a Chinese...)

Han Xin(Western Han, between Bai Qi and Wei Qing)

Ma Yuan(Eastern Han, between Wei Qing and Cao Cao)

Xie An(Eastern Jin, between Cao Cao and Li Jing)

Yuan Chonghuan(Ming, between Yue Fei and Shi Lang)

And it seems difficult to download it from Depositfiles in China, could you change it to SourceForge? With EDCNs too...

I would like to add all 4 of those names, but some of the existing names will need to go as a result. The list cannot be too long or the latter half of it never gets used.

I will replace Shi Lang with Yuan Chonghuan and add Han Xin.

If I add back Hou Junji we can add a new UHF (Unique Historical Failure) for China: Delete 4 of your Great Generals after they reach Level 6.

I will upload this and EDCNs to Source Forge.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I already suggested Yuan Chonghuan.
He's a great general, no doubt, but his inclusion has too much overlap and parallels Yue Fei too much.
Hmm...well, if we could expand all the categories for China by 2 to have parity with the American catalogue of GPs, then I think it'd be justifiable.
Can you come up with some extra scientists, merchants, etc?

I could easily do that, but America's GP list should be the longest among all civs since it is unique in that

(1) It can control the highest number of food rich core/historical cities among all civs in the game. No other civ even comes close.

(2) It's also the only civ who starts with Republic and is expected to stay with it the whole game.

This means America spawns more GPs than any other civ, except perhaps Greece/Italy with their UP + City States.

 

[platyping]

Taizong is a LH. I suggest you play DoC first before posting on these forums.

And yes, Liu Bang is downgraded to nothing in DoC. Stating the obvious here but you asked for it.


Go back to school if you want an answer to that. I don't get paid to teach you.


Because the source that claims Guan Yu to be a good general also claims that he is 2.16 meters tall, red skinned, and wields a weapon that weighs 40 lbs with one hand. The same source also claims he was able to open his eyes weeks after he was executed by beheading.

It is inconsistent of you to (as you seem to imply) dismiss some of the claims in your source while insisting the rest of them to be true. But again, most religious people do exactly that. If Guan Yu is a god to you, it's perfectly understandable. But I'm not adding a deity to a list of great people's names.

No wonder others say people in RFCE forums are rude lol.
You live in your own world only.
99% of leaders do not appear as leaders or great people in any mod simply because you don't see a Civ with 100 leaders for you to choose from.
Just because a person is neither listed as leader or great people does not mean he/she is reduced to nothing.
Learn to read.

How about finding just ONE source that claims that Guan Yu is a poor general?

Moderator Action: Please keep your posts about content, not about other posters. Please do not troll.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[soul-breathing]

I would like to add all 4 of those names, but some of the existing names will need to go as a result. The list cannot be too long or the latter half of it never gets used.

I will replace Shi Lang with Yuan Chonghuan and perhaps add Han Xin.

I will upload this and EDCNs to Source Forge.

Yes, I also think that Shi Lang should be a Jurchen(Qing) GP if Jurchen civ is added.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

How about finding just ONE source that claims that Guan Yu is a poor general?

http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/guanyu.php

Straight from the 三国志, or the historical Records of the Three Kingdoms.
A brief read even from a non-Chinese specialist will show that he isn't anything special.
And Chen Shou had a known Shu Han-bias as well.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

Greece, America, Japan ect. is definitely already well-covered.
But for the harder one's, I could cover Phoenicia (covering mostly Syriac culture, north-African Romans like st. Augustine, and the Maronites, not much data on pre-roman Phoenicia/Carthage), Iran/Persia (covering all Persian peoples as well as Fars proper) or Egypt if I have time in future.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

No wonder others say people in RFCE forums are rude lol.

I assume you mean RFC forums, because this isn't the RFCE forum.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Greece, America, Japan ect. is definitely already well-covered.
But for the harder one's, I could cover Phoenicia (covering mostly Syriac culture, north-African Romans like st. Augustine, and the Maronites, not much data on pre-roman Phoenicia/Carthage), Iran/Persia (covering all Persian peoples as well as Fars proper) or Egypt if I have time in future.

Iran/Persia and Egypt would be most necessary. Please do.

I will do England, Greece, and Rome next since I know those better than others.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Just so it doesn't get buried, and with a new tweak to the list:

Japan

Great Artists:

-Murasaki Shikibu
-Fujiwara no Teika
-Chikamatsu Monzaemon
-Katsushika Hokusai
-Edogawa Rampo
-Kurosawa Akira
-Mifune Toshiro
-Murakami Haruki

Decided to tackle
England:

Great Artists:

-Geoffrey Chaucer
-William Shakespeare
-Mary Shelley
-Jane Austen
-Charles Dickens
-George Orwell
-Audrey Hepburn
-The Beatles

 

[Bair_the_Normal]

In GP names for the Eastern civs, are the names written typically Eastern or Western style?

Koxinga is more Japanese than Chinese no matter how I'd like to pretend otherwise.

If I may, I respectfully disagree.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

In GP names for the Eastern civs, are the names written typically Eastern or Western style?

Eastern.

This is actually a necessary compromise because some Eastern names are never written in Western style.

For example, I've never seen Fujiwara no Kamatari written the other way around as Kamatarii no Fujiwara. Or Mao Zedong as Zedong Mao.

If I may, I respectfully disagree.

How? He's born in Japan and culturally more Japanese (as a Samurai/Pirate) than Chinese. Also genetically half Japanese.