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Expanded Great People Names (EGPNs)

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by iOnlySignIn, Aug 19, 2013.

  1. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    1) Cao Cao was never a King. He held the position of Chancellor.
    He was only posthumously called an Emperor by his son, Cao Pi.
    2) The language is telling. "Mere" general implies that it is a position not worth having or held in esteem.
    For one, I don't believe that classifying Cao Cao as a GG is in any way, demeaning his achievements as a leader.

    The Battle of Julu was impressive by all means, but the Qin were already crumbling by the time of Xiang Yu's ascent.

    While that is all completely true, if you haven't noticed, for China,
    all of the GGs are laid out and organized by era.
    As Cao Cao is included for the Three Kingdoms Era, there isn't room for a contemporary.

    That being said, the only GG I would contest is Hou Junji; I'd swap him out for Koxinga or Yuan Chonghuan,
    but with the former, it's hilarious to have him on the same list with Shi Lang and with the latter, his role overlaps too much with Yue Fei.
     
  2. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    ^ Hou Junji is seriously underrated because he was executed for treason. Although his mentor Li Jing probably deserves the place better.

    Koxinga is more Japanese than Chinese no matter how I'd like to pretend otherwise.

    Yuan Chonghuan is one too many tragic character. Yue Fei is already there.
     
  3. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    I suggest Li Shiji for Tang myself.

    I would disagree with this. Just to compare and contrast, look at Koxinga and Wu Qingyuan (Go Seigen).
    Wu was born in the Republic of China but was sent to live in Japan at a young age to hone his Weiqi/Go play.
    Considering that he spent the remainder of his formative years and his adult life there (well, his whole life), I'd consider him more Japanese than Chinese, if anything.
    This parallels with Koxinga, who was born in Japan and spent his earliest years there, but was brought to Ming China at a similarly early age.
    The only difference is, Wu wasn't involved in politics, and Koxinga became a Ming patriot.

    Agreed. Although I suggested these generals mostly because I feel Ming needs some good representation in the GG department, but it's no big loss if we omit them.
     
  4. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Many of the current GGs were also rulers of their respective countries, some of them go back to BtS even. That's kind of hard to avoid considering how warfare was conducted in the Middle Ages.

    By the way, I think John of Gaunt and Edward the Black Prince could work as merchant and general for England respectively. Also, I've realized that Gonzalo de Cordoba (El Gran Capitan) is notably missing from the list of Spanish generals.
     
  5. platyping

    platyping Sleeping Dragon

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    1) Cao Cao was not a Emperor while he was alive, but he definitely held that title after his death.
    There are tons of Emperors in China not listed in Civ, yet none of them appeared as Great People beside Cao Cao anyway.
    Does that mean that Liu Bang or Tang Taizong not appearing as Leaders or Great People mean they are downgraded to nothing?

    2) Qin collapsed. There are millions of people in China. So why is he the one who did it if he just "happens to be there"

    3) If my history is poor, your comprehension is just as good.
    When did I ever mention anything about Guan Yu as a good general because he is tall and red skinned?
     
  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    It should be noted that my lists of GPs were compiled from different sources and while I always tried to check every entry of its worthiness of inclusion, it's much harder to check whether someone who's not included should be. This is especially true in areas where my historical knowledge doesn't include the involved individuals.

    So if rulers are missing from the Chinese GP list, it's more an indication of the preferences of the original creator of the list than mine. I think rulers are okay in general, only those already included as LH should be avoided to help immersion.
     
  7. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    Taizong is a LH. I suggest you play DoC first before posting on these forums.

    And yes, Liu Bang is downgraded to nothing in DoC. Stating the obvious here but you asked for it.

    Go back to school if you want an answer to that. I don't get paid to teach you.

    Because the source that claims Guan Yu to be a good general also claims that he is 2.16 meters tall, red skinned, and wields a weapon that weighs 40 lbs with one hand. The same source also claims he was able to open his eyes weeks after he was executed by beheading.

    It is inconsistent of you to (as you seem to imply) dismiss some of the claims in your source while insisting the rest of them to be true. But again, most religious people do exactly that. If Guan Yu is a god to you, it's perfectly understandable. But I'm not adding a deity to a list of great people's names.
     
  8. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing Chieftain

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    Some more Generals for China(since I am a Chinese...)

    Han Xin(Western Han, between Bai Qi and Wei Qing)

    Ma Yuan(Eastern Han, between Wei Qing and Cao Cao)

    Xie An(Eastern Jin, between Cao Cao and Li Jing)

    Yuan Chonghuan(Ming, between Yue Fei and Shi Lang)

    And it seems difficult to download it from Depositfiles in China, could you change it to SourceForge? With EDCNs too...
     
  9. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    I already suggested Yuan Chonghuan.
    He's a great general, no doubt, but his inclusion has too much overlap and parallels Yue Fei too much.
    Hmm...well, if we could expand all the categories for China by 2 to have parity with the American catalogue of GPs, then I think it'd be justifiable.
    Can you come up with some extra scientists, merchants, etc?
     
  10. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    I would like to add all 4 of those names, but some of the existing names will need to go as a result. The list cannot be too long or the latter half of it never gets used.

    I will replace Shi Lang with Yuan Chonghuan and add Han Xin.

    If I add back Hou Junji we can add a new UHF (Unique Historical Failure) for China: Delete 4 of your Great Generals after they reach Level 6.

    I will upload this and EDCNs to Source Forge.
     
  11. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    I could easily do that, but America's GP list should be the longest among all civs since it is unique in that

    (1) It can control the highest number of food rich core/historical cities among all civs in the game. No other civ even comes close.

    (2) It's also the only civ who starts with Republic and is expected to stay with it the whole game.

    This means America spawns more GPs than any other civ, except perhaps Greece/Italy with their UP + City States.
     
  12. platyping

    platyping Sleeping Dragon

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    No wonder others say people in RFCE forums are rude lol.
    You live in your own world only.
    99% of leaders do not appear as leaders or great people in any mod simply because you don't see a Civ with 100 leaders for you to choose from.
    Just because a person is neither listed as leader or great people does not mean he/she is reduced to nothing.
    Learn to read.

    How about finding just ONE source that claims that Guan Yu is a poor general?

    Moderator Action: Please keep your posts about content, not about other posters. Please do not troll.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  13. soul-breathing

    soul-breathing Chieftain

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    Yes, I also think that Shi Lang should be a Jurchen(Qing) GP if Jurchen civ is added.
     
  14. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/guanyu.php

    Straight from the 三国志, or the historical Records of the Three Kingdoms.
    A brief read even from a non-Chinese specialist will show that he isn't anything special.
    And Chen Shou had a known Shu Han-bias as well.
     
  15. Pavel Chichikov

    Pavel Chichikov Chieftain

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    Greece, America, Japan ect. is definitely already well-covered.
    But for the harder one's, I could cover Phoenicia (covering mostly Syriac culture, north-African Romans like st. Augustine, and the Maronites, not much data on pre-roman Phoenicia/Carthage), Iran/Persia (covering all Persian peoples as well as Fars proper) or Egypt if I have time in future.
     
  16. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    I assume you mean RFC forums, because this isn't the RFCE forum.
     
  17. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    Iran/Persia and Egypt would be most necessary. Please do.

    I will do England, Greece, and Rome next since I know those better than others.
     
  18. Tomorrow's Dawn

    Tomorrow's Dawn Heroes Never Die

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    Just so it doesn't get buried, and with a new tweak to the list:

    Japan

    Great Artists:

    -Murasaki Shikibu
    -Fujiwara no Teika
    -Chikamatsu Monzaemon
    -Katsushika Hokusai
    -Edogawa Rampo
    -Kurosawa Akira
    -Mifune Toshiro
    -Murakami Haruki

    Decided to tackle
    England:

    Great Artists:

    -Geoffrey Chaucer
    -William Shakespeare
    -Mary Shelley
    -Jane Austen
    -Charles Dickens
    -George Orwell
    -Audrey Hepburn
    -The Beatles
     
  19. Bair_the_Normal

    Bair_the_Normal 全は禪

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    In GP names for the Eastern civs, are the names written typically Eastern or Western style?

    If I may, I respectfully disagree.
     
  20. iOnlySignIn

    iOnlySignIn Prince$s

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    Eastern.

    This is actually a necessary compromise because some Eastern names are never written in Western style.

    For example, I've never seen Fujiwara no Kamatari written the other way around as Kamatarii no Fujiwara. Or Mao Zedong as Zedong Mao.

    How? He's born in Japan and culturally more Japanese (as a Samurai/Pirate) than Chinese. Also genetically half Japanese.
     

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