Ferguson

Graffito said:
shouldn't that be an alledged common thug or has he been found guilty and thus not persumed innocent
I was only pointing out the similarities of using the media to be judge and jury...

an inquiry might find that officer acted responsibly and was fully justified in attempting to defuse a situation that was getting out of hand, an inquiry might find he should receive some sort of commendation for his actions under the circumstances and that he put the police department and community above his own personal safety...

who knows he might be found to be the only person actually above taking sides in the whole event.

no, can't possibly be, i read how he is basicly scum who dose not belong in the police force
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After his little apology the rioting got worse. After his apology it opened the door for every news agency covering it to paint the story as the cops acting improperly, when this wasn't the case what so ever. Thats why a number of officers throughout the Highway Patrol, St. Louis County, St. Louis City and the smaller municipalities within County were upset with his actions. Never mind his questionable leadership throughout the August riots. He was a nice face for the Governor to put in charge of the situation, ignoring that he clearly didn't understand the "community" was simply out for blood and there was no foundation or justification for their reaction. This is clearly illustrated by the community pressuring people to lie under oath to the Grand Jury. I honestly think their should be a series of arrests, charging anyone who promoted this conspiracy, albeit a not very effective one, but it would send a message that breaking the law, lying, and promoting a cultural norm of rioting anytime a criminal gets shot by the Police is not acceptable and will be dealt with harshly.
 
Colonel said:
After his little apology the rioting got worse. After his apology it opened the door for every news agency covering it to paint the story as the cops acting improperly, when this wasn't the case what so ever. Thats why a number of officers throughout the Highway Patrol, St. Louis County, St. Louis City and the smaller municipalities within County were upset with his actions. Never mind his questionable leadership throughout the August riots. He was a nice face for the Governor to put in charge of the situation, ignoring that he clearly didn't understand the "community" was simply out for blood and there was no foundation or justification for their reaction. This is clearly illustrated by the community pressuring people to lie under oath to the Grand Jury. I honestly think their should be a series of arrests, charging anyone who promoted this conspiracy, albeit a not very effective one, but it would send a message that breaking the law, lying, and promoting a cultural norm of rioting anytime a criminal gets shot by the Police is not acceptable and will be dealt with harshly.
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are you also saying that the Ferguson police chief should be sacked and is a disgrace
I want to say this to the Brown family: No one who has not experienced the loss of a child can understand what you’re feeling. I am truly sorry for the loss of your son. I’m also sorry that it took so long to remove Michael from the street.

-------
I do want to say to any peaceful protester who did not feel that I did enough to protect their Constitutional right to protest, I am sorry for that. The right of the people to peacefully assemble is what the police are here to protect. If anyone who was peacefully exercising that right is upset and angry, I feel responsible, and I am sorry
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as opposed to
He talked and marched with protesters, posed with them for photos and spoke to loud applause at a rally where he apologized to Brown's family and described his relationship with his own son who wears sagging pants and has tattoos.

-------------------
Johnson and his supervisors received numerous emails and phone calls complimenting his demeanor from law officers across Missouri and the country.

'Your agency and Captain Johnson are making Troopers all over the country proud,' Minnesota State Patrol Lt. Col. Matt Langer wrote to Missouri State Highway Patrol Col. Ron Replogle.
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when the locale cops start calling for their own boss to go, then the criticism of the out of towner might carry some weight
 
Colonel said:
After his little apology the rioting got worse. After his apology it opened the door for every news agency covering it to paint the story as the cops acting improperly, when this wasn't the case what so ever. Thats why a number of officers throughout the Highway Patrol, St. Louis County, St. Louis City and the smaller municipalities within County were upset with his actions. Never mind his questionable leadership throughout the August riots. He was a nice face for the Governor to put in charge of the situation, ignoring that he clearly didn't understand the "community" was simply out for blood and there was no foundation or justification for their reaction. This is clearly illustrated by the community pressuring people to lie under oath to the Grand Jury. I honestly think their should be a series of arrests, charging anyone who promoted this conspiracy, albeit a not very effective one, but it would send a message that breaking the law, lying, and promoting a cultural norm of rioting anytime a criminal gets shot by the Police is not acceptable and will be dealt with harshly.
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I'm not sure that really holds water. As you've indirectly pointed out, a lot of people are shot by police in America on an almost daily basis without any public outcry. As a police officer you expect to be disliked, but if the police are doing their jobs well then it should be obvious that they're a good thing to have around. People don't just go out for police blood with no reason - the very fact that they're angry in one particular set of circumstances demonstrates that something has gone wrong. To find out what it is, you may consider why there aren't usually riots in Boston when the police go wrong.
 
Flying Pig said:
I'm not sure that really holds water. As you've indirectly pointed out, a lot of people are shot by police in America on an almost daily basis without any public outcry. As a police officer you expect to be disliked, but if the police are doing their jobs well then it should be obvious that they're a good thing to have around. People don't just go out for police blood with no reason - the very fact that they're angry in one particular set of circumstances demonstrates that something has gone wrong. To find out what it is, you may consider why there aren't usually riots in Boston when the police go wrong.
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Police don't shoot people quite that often. As to there being a problem that justifies their response. The COMMUNITY PRESSURED WITNESSES TO LIE, thus inflaming a situation which would have been identified early on as a thug criminal being shot as he attempted to further assault an officer. Had that narrative taken to the News early on there would have been no riots.

As to the Police Chief of Ferguson apologizes I think his wording was key to the apology. He did not apologize for Police actions, he said he was sorry for their loss. The Highway Patrol Captain basically apologizes unconditionally for the actions of Police. He also is the reason why a good portion of the city burned in August. He wanted people to see him holding back Officers while the rioters burned the city as they watched. I think he used questionable tactics and overall made the situation worse.
 
People rioting because of cops is the same as when a wife snaps because her husband didn't do the dishes. It's not just one thing. It's a life of slight injustices. It's indicative of a systemic problem.
 
Smote said:
People rioting because of cops is the same as when a wife snaps because her husband didn't do the dishes. It's not just one thing. It's a life of slight injustices. It's indicative of a systemic problem.
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Or its indicative of a bunch of criminals to include the deceased family inciting a riot to further their own goals. Namely for their own 15 minutes of fame, and all that free crap they all robbed from the many stores.
 
Colonel said:
Police don't shoot people quite that often. As to there being a problem that justifies their response. The COMMUNITY PRESSURED WITNESSES TO LIE, thus inflaming a situation which would have been identified early on as a thug criminal being shot as he attempted to further assault an officer. Had that narrative taken to the News early on there would have been no riots.

As to the Police Chief of Ferguson apologizes I think his wording was key to the apology. He did not apologize for Police actions, he said he was sorry for their loss. The Highway Patrol Captain basically apologizes unconditionally for the actions of Police. He also is the reason why a good portion of the city burned in August. He wanted people to see him holding back Officers while the rioters burned the city as they watched. I think he used questionable tactics and overall made the situation worse.
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A few points of comment - please excuse the format:

1) 'The Community' isn't some grand hive-mind. What you're saying is that people pressured witnesses to lie - that happens an awful lot. People also believed those lying witnesses. In nearly every case of any importance, you have people telling stories, some of which are true and some of which aren't. Most of those cases don't lead to riots: you read the untrue stories in the paper, say 'dear me, that's bad', and go back to your tea. So you still need an explanation for why that was enough to start a riot, and my suggestion would be that people were already (as Smote has also pointed out) so tired of being mistreated by the police that it didn't take much for smouldering anger to turn into explosive anger. That's the police's fault.

2) Whether or not a person is a 'thug' or even a criminal has no bearing on whether or not they should be shot by the police. All that matters is the danger that they pose in the moment. Bringing in questions of moral character in general terms is just smokescreening - the whole 'gentle giant' thing that sprung up around the Ferguson case is totally off-course, because it doesn't matter, but it's only there because people are used to seeing character assassinations used to justify people being shot.
 
Smote said:
People rioting because of cops is the same as when a wife snaps because her husband didn't do the dishes. It's not just one thing. It's a life of slight injustices. It's indicative of a systemic problem.
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As a husband of over 30 years of marriage, I object to the implication here that a husband that doesn't do dishes is guilty of fomenting injustice.

I do all the cooking. Hell if I am then going to do the dishes too.
 
Flying Pig said:
A few points of comment - please excuse the format:

1) 'The Community' isn't some grand hive-mind. What you're saying is that people pressured witnesses to lie - that happens an awful lot. People also believed those lying witnesses. In nearly every case of any importance, you have people telling stories, some of which are true and some of which aren't. Most of those cases don't lead to riots: you read the untrue stories in the paper, say 'dear me, that's bad', and go back to your tea. So you still need an explanation for why that was enough to start a riot, and my suggestion would be that people were already (as Smote has also pointed out) so tired of being mistreated by the police that it didn't take much for smouldering anger to turn into explosive anger. That's the police's fault.

2) Whether or not a person is a 'thug' or even a criminal has no bearing on whether or not they should be shot by the police. All that matters is the danger that they pose in the moment. Bringing in questions of moral character in general terms is just smokescreening - the whole 'gentle giant' thing that sprung up around the Ferguson case is totally off-course, because it doesn't matter, but it's only there because people are used to seeing character assassinations used to justify people being shot.
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They led to riots in this case because a vast portion of the community had a desire to paint the police as something they were not. The vast majority wanted a riot simply so they could commit crimes under cover of a riot. The family wanted their 15 minutes of fame so were more then happy to oblige the mob. The simple fact is that a criminal committed a violent crime, then continued with another violent crime against an officer of the law, the officer was forced to use deadly force. The community collectively came together to initiate a riot of mass portions and blame Police for crimes they had not committed.
 
The majority of people wanted to riot and were just waiting for an excuse? This sounds a lot like you're saying that the particular subset of the population that made up the protesters (as the vast majority of them were) are naturally prone to violence and crime...
 
Flying Pig said:
The majority of people wanted to riot and were just waiting for an excuse? This sounds a lot like you're saying that the particular subset of the population that made up the protesters (as the vast majority of them were) are naturally prone to violence and crime...
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In that particular area, they indeed are. That is not say the ethnicity or socio-economic standing of people in similar circumstances are prone to violence and crime just that I speak from experience of the area. They are indeed prone to violence and crime.
 
Colonel said:
It's not a discontinued threat of violence. As Missouri law reads, the subject was a violent criminal, who had at this point committed two back to back violent crimes in the course of a half hour. The objective reasoning of the officer if Micheal Brown were in fact running away is that a violent criminal is fleeing to continue committing violent crime. Thus a continued threat to the community. This means under either circumstance, either via charging the officer or running away the officer, under Missouri law and SCOTUS, would have had the legal authority to shoot Brown.
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Nope. Running away is not a "violent crime." The Supreme Court outlawed the "fleeing felony rule" in Garner vs. Tennessee. Wilson's firing at Brown while Brown was running away was a felonious assault, giving Brown the right to defend himself.

BTW: I did an experiment last night. I'm an old, fat, out-of-shape guy. I ran 9 meters in three seconds. 9 meters is almost 30 feet. This is the approximate distance which Officer Wilson claims Mike Brown ran at him. (According to Wilson, Brown started 30 feet away, charged while Wilson backpedaled, and died 8 feet away. I figure, Wilson couldn't have backpedaled more than about 8 feet or he wouldn't have been steady enough to have hit Brown 6 times with 10 shots.)

The audio recording of the shots fired by Wilson reveal a flurry of shots, a three-second gap, and another flurry of shots. Thus, Wilson's story must be false. He needed more than three seconds to fire a fusillade of shots, pause for three seconds, and then fire another fusillade of shots.
 
Colonel said:
The Highway Patrol Captain apologized before the relevant facts of the case were out, before the Justice System had been given a chance to decide who the aggressor was in the situation, and ultimately the Captain cast a negative light on the fine men and women of the St. Louis County Police and its subdivisions. The very same people who have done an amazing job over the past 4 months dealing with constant attacks against them both while dealing with the aggressive riots and the PR damage caused by the outside agitators, namely MSNBC talking heads.

The Highway Patrol Captain was clearly out of line at the time yet no one called him on for fear of inciting further violence in the region. It was simply disgraceful for an Officer of the law to be honoring and apologizing for the death of a common thug.
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Ron Johnson did a fine job calming things down.

Yes cops were mad about his apology.

One time he said at a press conference that some of his men wouldn't look him in the face anymore because he ordered them to stand down 1 night rather than confront the looters.

But night after night after night, he was out there in the thick of it and did live interviews with CNN at 1AM every single time.
The media were not friendly and he aced them all.
That is a pretty rare talent! :eek:

Now take a step back and look at the results.
Did his apology really ruin the reputation of the Missouri Highway Patrol?
Do many people even remember it?
Or do people remember he stepped in when nothing else was working and calmed things down?

He got the job done without a bloodbath and deserves congratulations.
The situation was impossible with all the lies being throw around.
 
Well, this is really bad. :sad:
Some nutjob in New York City just ambush executed 2 cops in broad daylight.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-brooklyn-sources-article-1.2051941
Two NYPD cops were executed Saturday after a gang member from Baltimore drove to the city to kill police officers after wounding his girlfriend, sources told the Daily News.

The shooter, identified as Ismaaiyl Brinsley, boasted about wanting to kill cops in the hours before he ambushed the officers outside the Tompkins Houses in Bedford-Stuyvesant about 3 p.m. Saturday.

“I’m Putting Wings On Pigs Today. They Take 1 Of Ours...Let’s Take 2 of Theirs,” Brinsley wrote on Instagram alongside a photo of a silver handgun.

Brinsley made good on his promise, firing several rounds into the patrol car parked near Myrtle and Tompkins Aves., witnesses said.

“The perp came out of the houses, walked up behind the car and lit them up,” a high-ranking police official told the Daily News.

Brinsley then sprinted around the corner to the Myrtle-Willoughby Aves. subway station where he shot himself in the head, police said. He was later pronounced dead.

Both officers were rushed to Woodhull Hospital but were later pronounced dead.


Witnesses said the officers never had a chance.

“He just walked up and shot that cop in the head,” one man said.
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Zkribbler said:
Nope. Running away is not a "violent crime." The Supreme Court outlawed the "fleeing felony rule" in Garner vs. Tennessee. Wilson's firing at Brown while Brown was running away was a felonious assault, giving Brown the right to defend himself.

BTW: I did an experiment last night. I'm an old, fat, out-of-shape guy. I ran 9 meters in three seconds. 9 meters is almost 30 feet. This is the approximate distance which Officer Wilson claims Mike Brown ran at him. (According to Wilson, Brown started 30 feet away, charged while Wilson backpedaled, and died 8 feet away. I figure, Wilson couldn't have backpedaled more than about 8 feet or he wouldn't have been steady enough to have hit Brown 6 times with 10 shots.)

The audio recording of the shots fired by Wilson reveal a flurry of shots, a three-second gap, and another flurry of shots. Thus, Wilson's story must be false. He needed more than three seconds to fire a fusillade of shots, pause for three seconds, and then fire another fusillade of shots.
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You should more then likely re-read that SCOTUS case. I in fact quoted it in this thread. The case actually says that Officers can't simply shoot every felon on the streets fleeing. They have to constitute a continued threat to the community, which Micheal Brown did as he committed two violent crimes in the course of a half hour. Note Micheal Brown wasn't running away when shot at, he was in fact charging the Officer, this is per the evidence to the Grand Jury. Also, note an advancing target who was hit by the first set of shots more then likely would slow down even on the drugs he was. The audio confirms that the officer made a measured assessment to continue using deadly force as Micheal Brown presented that significant of a threat to warrant it.
 
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