Ferguson

Exactly. The bolded part also definitely applies to the usual suspects here at CFC OT. Those usual suspects don't care about any of the evidence that shows Michael Brown was nothing more than a vicious criminal who tried to murder a cop who was merely trying to do his job in the service of his community. All they see (and all they want to see) is that a black teen was killed by a white cop. And because of the racial makeup if this incident, the usual suspects here automatically think this was racially motivated and a crime must have been committed.

You should read the testimony of the only witness the prosecutor favorably quoted - claimed to police he was 100 yards away, but before the grand jury, claimed to have been 50 to 75 yards away. So it was inconsistent and he was far away, yet the prosecutor praised him for giving testimony inconsistent with many other witnesses. Witness number 10.
 
This is my question as well, both regarding this case and in general. I'd be interested to know (from JR, any other lawyer on here, or indeed in the media) whether a prosecutor could have readily gotten an indictment if they hadn't given the grand jury ALL the evidence, and instead run it just like any other indictment.

And, is this truly the general problem with our judicial system as it relates to criminal actions by police? DAs and other prosecutors that work hand-in-hand with the police on a daily basis using the secrecy and lowered bar ( :cringe: ) of the indictment process to effectively block police abuse of power cases from coming to trial? Do we need a judicial version of Internal Affairs to prosecute these cases?

Based on the transcripts I have read, I could have gotten a Grand Jury to indict by using the typical prosecutor techniques.
 
He wouldn't because that is not how the system works. That is also not what he has done in literally thousands of other cases. So what have we got? Clear favoritism displayed by the prosecutor. That's the problem.

Yeah, but looking at the facts of the case, it seems to me that the cop in question wasn't guilty of murder or homicide.

So even if there was favourtism at play here, why should the cop be in jail? It seems to me like this case should have never been thrown into a grand jury type trial, but had a regular one.

So why didn't they do a regular trial? It seems to me that he would have been not guilty in a regular trial as well, but it seems to me grand juries are for easy to prove cases only. This one obviously wasn't. So why grand jury? Who decided that and why?

And no matter how you slice it, I don't see how the cop was guilty. That's what I'd like explained - why the cop should have been indicted, given what we know about what happened.
 
You should read the testimony of the only witness the prosecutor favorably quoted - claimed to police he was 100 yards away, but before the grand jury, claimed to have been 50 to 75 yards away. So it was inconsistent and he was far away, yet the prosecutor praised him for giving testimony inconsistent with many other witnesses. Witness number 10.

Of course the confrontation went from the car to about 150 ft away.

At certain times the witness may have been at different distances.
 
@warpus,

The Grand Jury decides if the case will GO to trial (regular).

The GJ does not convict.
 
Ah I see... but.. okay, now I'm confused. Aren't only cases where the prosecution has near 100% undeniable evidence that the perp was guilty sent to grand juries?

Why didn't this case go straight to a regular trial?

It's my understanding that in some states it must necessarily go through a Grand Jury before going to trial. Usually prosecutors will only send a case a to GJ if they think they'll get an indictment, and after that the case still goes to regular trial.
 
Ah I see... but.. okay, now I'm confused. Aren't only cases where the prosecution has near 100% undeniable evidence that the perp was guilty sent to grand juries?

Why didn't this case go straight to a regular trial?
What luiz said is correct, but I'll expand on it to try and make it a little easier for you to wrap your head around. We don't have grand juries in Australia either, so I looked into them earlier this week.

In som e parts of the US, the grand jury system exists. You mentioned earlier that you watch Law & Order, though you may have been kidding. They often mention grand juries in the show, but very seldom show them, because most cases that go before grand juries result in an indictment. An indictment is a decision to go to trial.

The grand jury itself is not a trial; it is merely to decide if the defendant has any case to answer. This is to prevent frivolous prosecutions; a prosecutor or police officer cannot merely repeatedly charge a person with crimes, forcing them to bankrupt themselves from defending themselves in court. Only the prosecution evidence is presented before a grand jury; the point of this is to determine whether or not there is even the potential of a crime to be answered for.

This is where the prosecutor in this case has failed to do his job. He has presented all of the evidence before the grand jury, which has - unsurprisingly - decided that Wilson acted in self-defence, and therefore there is no need for a trial; after all, the evidence indicates that Wilson is not guilty, and the grand jury can see that. Deciding upon guilt like this is not their usual job; that should be the job of a trial jury. But the prosecutor in this case has effectively acted as both prosecution and defence before the grand jury, preventing a trial from even taking place. That is wrong, and it should cost him his job; he should also be investigated, as apparently he has a near 100% success rate, but a 0% success rate in indicting cops. That is very suspicious.
 
A grand jury is only one kind of probable cause hearing. Most preliminary hearings are before a judge. Some states don't use grand juries at all.
 
A grand jury is only one kind of probable cause hearing. Most preliminary hearings are before a judge. Some states don't use grand juries at all.
Are grand juries always the case in Missouri? Now that you've mentioned it, I also remember seeing preliminary hearings before judges on L&O, implying that New York uses both.
 
This is my question as well, both regarding this case and in general. I'd be interested to know (from JR, any other lawyer on here, or indeed in the media) whether a prosecutor could have readily gotten an indictment if they hadn't given the grand jury ALL the evidence, and instead run it just like any other indictment.

And, is this truly the general problem with our judicial system as it relates to criminal actions by police? DAs and other prosecutors that work hand-in-hand with the police on a daily basis using the secrecy and lowered bar ( :cringe: ) of the indictment process to effectively block police abuse of power cases from coming to trial? Do we need a judicial version of Internal Affairs to prosecute these cases?

What we need is for the feds who are investigating this case to successfully prosecute the glaringly obvious criminal.

By selectively refusing to prosecute properly in some cases, the county prosecutor of StLouis county has willfully denied equal protection under law, a basic civil right, to the entire population of StLouis county. It has also created an environment where people in that select group are fully aware that they are exempt from prosecution, which has created a clear threat to the safety of every citizen in StLouis county.

Incarcerating this prosecutor for an extended period of time will send a clear message: if you are not willing to prosecute every case to the best of your ability no matter who is accused, then you better not be a prosecutor.

Conveniently it would also send the message: we hear you and are taking action to restore your civil rights, so you can put down the torches and pitchforks and return to your homes.
 
Are grand juries always the case in Missouri? Now that you've mentioned it, I also remember seeing preliminary hearings before judges on L&O, implying that New York uses both.
I can't imagine any state using grand juries routinely. It would just be impossible. There aren't enough hours in the day or people to be on them.


p.s. It's funny that you mention Law & Order. New York City's "night court" has become something of a tourist attraction. The night court is the kind of 'wham-bam' accelerated proceedings you see on television, complete with bizarre cases and odd characters. They blast through ~80 cases a night, running until 1am.
 
I can't imagine any state using grand juries routinely. It would just be impossible. There aren't enough hours in the day or people to be on them.
Well, twelve businesses burnt down. That's a lot of freshly unemployed people that need somewhere to be. And, while I stupidly didn't clarify it, I obviously meant for capital cases like murder. Though you Americans seem to have so many of them that yes, it would be quite time-consuming.
 
I can't imagine any state using grand juries routinely. It would just be impossible. There aren't enough hours in the day or people to be on them.

Totally accurate. It could be speculated that this case went to a grand jury specifically because if it had been presented to a judge the way that the prosecutor presented it to the grand jury a judge would have immediately recognized the presentation as prosecutorial misconduct. The ordinary citizens on a grand jury wouldn't recognize that.
 
IMO all the info was given to the Grand Jury because the prosecutor did not want it to look like they were hiding ANYTHING.

If a GJ decides not to prosecute... then in reality they are deciding the prosecution doesn't have a winable case.

So not really giving a defense with all the info... the GJ decision not to prosecute is like a defense 'partial win'.

Still may be guilty... but not enough to win at trial in the opinion of the GJ.
 
IMO all the info was given to the Grand Jury because the prosecutor did not want it to look like they were hiding ANYTHING.

If a GJ decides not to prosecute... then in reality they are deciding the prosecution doesn't have a winable case.

So not really giving a defense with all the info... the GJ decision not to prosecute is like a defense 'partial win'.

Still may be guilty... but not enough to win at trial in the opinion of the GJ.
Unfortunately, that's not the prosecutor's job. His job was to present the prosecution case to the grand jury, not the whole case.
 
Well, only if he doesn't feel all the information is relevent.

If he doesn't give all the information then don't you think he will be accused of hiding information by the public? In the general area of Ferguson.

IMO it was a smart move. He did give the prosecution's case with the reasons for deciding which information (witnesses) was correct.
 
What luiz said is correct, but I'll expand on it to try and make it a little easier for you to wrap your head around. We don't have grand juries in Australia either, so I looked into them earlier this week.

In som e parts of the US, the grand jury system exists. You mentioned earlier that you watch Law & Order, though you may have been kidding. They often mention grand juries in the show, but very seldom show them, because most cases that go before grand juries result in an indictment. An indictment is a decision to go to trial.

The grand jury itself is not a trial; it is merely to decide if the defendant has any case to answer. This is to prevent frivolous prosecutions; a prosecutor or police officer cannot merely repeatedly charge a person with crimes, forcing them to bankrupt themselves from defending themselves in court. Only the prosecution evidence is presented before a grand jury; the point of this is to determine whether or not there is even the potential of a crime to be answered for.

This is where the prosecutor in this case has failed to do his job. He has presented all of the evidence before the grand jury, which has - unsurprisingly - decided that Wilson acted in self-defence, and therefore there is no need for a trial; after all, the evidence indicates that Wilson is not guilty, and the grand jury can see that. Deciding upon guilt like this is not their usual job; that should be the job of a trial jury. But the prosecutor in this case has effectively acted as both prosecution and defence before the grand jury, preventing a trial from even taking place. That is wrong, and it should cost him his job; he should also be investigated, as apparently he has a near 100% success rate, but a 0% success rate in indicting cops. That is very suspicious.

Wow, that was incredibly informative and I feel like I now know a lot more about what's going on. Thanks!!

In regards to what the prosecutor did - from what I've read he basically did what most prosecutors in grand juries do when a cop is the one accused - they treat him differently. So is the problem with this particular prosecutor, or with all prosecutors in the country?

My follow up question is this: If this had gone to trial, it doesn't seem to me that the cop would have been found guilty of anything. It seems like a clear case of a police officer doing his job to me.

So say that this grand jury thing turned out differently - and he was indicted. And it went to trial.. Do people expect him to have been found guilty there? It doesn't seem very likely to me, given what we know about the case! So is it possible that this prosecutor, in this case, did what he did because he knew that? And is it possible that this cop was thrown into a grand jury due to public pressure? Because it seems to me that most cases presented there are very solid cases that the prosecution expects to win.
 
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