Ferguson

[Timsup2nothin]

Rare, yes, but police work is stressful enough and the public usually irritating enough that every so often policemen do stupid things out of anger and frustration. Being a policeman is often about biting your tongue and holding yourself to a higher standard than those out of uniform: you often realise that you'd feel perfectly entitled to hit the person in front of you were you meeting as two civilians. That said, part of police training is that the public are often stupid, often uncooperative and sometimes downright disruptive, but you still have to treat them fairly. You have to assume that totally innocent people might run away from you, refuse to answer your questions or generally make your life difficult, because people's decency and good sense seems to go out of the window when faced with a uniform.

Held to a higher standard? So when is this situation where I am 'perfectly entitled' to hit the person in front of me? I would really like to know how cops not just hitting the person in front of them equates to holding themselves to a higher standard.

The most certainly accurate thing you said was "part of police training is that the public are often stupid". That attitude may account for people's decency going right out the window when faced with a uniform, don't you think? I'm just guessing, but if I took to introducing myself with "hi, I'm Tim, and I've been trained to think you are stupid" I think my options in life would be severely limited.

 

[JohnRM]

Those cases are extremely rare. I would go so far as to say that there are no cases where police beat on someone for no reason whatsoever. They just give orders until you don't follow one, and then they have a reason. A reason you indicate is perfectly acceptable to you.

Hence why


struck me as absolutely brilliant.

I think you are among a few intentionally misunderstanding what I am saying so that you will have something to feel outraged about.

 

[Senethro]

I think you are among a few intentionally misunderstanding what I am saying so that you will have something to feel outraged about.

Not at all. Some people think cops should be held to higher standards given their role. Others think they're some kind of higher being to whom you owe slavish obedience and worship.

In case you haven't noticed you're trying to make an argument for any cop to look over his shoulder for witnesses, shoot someone who he will claim is causing him fear for his life, and walk away. Its maybe not what you intend but its a nasty loophole.

 

[Flying Pig]

Held to a higher standard? So when is this situation where I am 'perfectly entitled' to hit the person in front of me? I would really like to know how cops not just hitting the person in front of them equates to holding themselves to a higher standard.

Well, when they're being aggressive with you, for example. You're not allowed to lose your temper even when it would be quite understandable for anyone else to do so. You'd probably be understanding if a civilian friend told you that he punched someone who came up in his face blind drunk and started swearing at him, but a police officer absolutely can't do that.

The most certainly accurate thing you said was "part of police training is that the public are often stupid". That attitude may account for people's decency going right out the window when faced with a uniform, don't you think? I'm just guessing, but if I took to introducing myself with "hi, I'm Tim, and I've been trained to think you are stupid" I think my options in life would be severely limited.

You can treat people with respect without assuming any intelligence on their part. Part of that's just explaining everything clearly; if you have to redirect traffic, you give them simple instructions in an easy-to-follow manner. As I said, though, it also extends to assuming that the person who sees you and runs away might be doing so because he's being stupid rather than because he's a criminal. Of course, it's still usually worth catching him to make sure, but you wouldn't shoot at him - if you were armed, of course, which the British police routinely aren't. It's not about assuming that everyone is stupid, so much as acting in a way that minimises the amount of problems that stupid or uncooperative people can cause. You've probably noticed that police officers affect a certain demeanour - polite, but usually clear, authoritative and matter-of-fact. Part of the reason why they don't talk to people on duty as they might off duty is that we naturally assume that the people we come into contact with are going to be reasonably friendly and have a few ounces of common sense, which simply isn't a fair assumption for anyone wearing a uniform (any uniform, I think, but especially a law enforcement or military one) to make.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think you are among a few intentionally misunderstanding what I am saying so that you will have something to feel outraged about.

Maybe. Or maybe when you said it you weren't considering that 'give orders until one isn't followed then commence the beating' does in fact put the cop 'in the right' as far as what you said. That is actually perfectly understandable.

You may even have a strong desire to think 'cops wouldn't do that' and be willing to rely on that belief. Many people do. Unfortunately that belief does actually provide the opportunity for cops to not only do it but also get away with it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Well, when they're being aggressive with you, for example. You're not allowed to lose your temper even when it would be quite understandable for anyone else to do so. You'd probably be understanding if a civilian friend told you that he punched someone who came up in his face blind drunk and started swearing at him, but a police officer absolutely can't do that.

If my civilian friend was at work when it happened and told me he got fired for it my response would be 'what did you expect?'

If I did it and the drunk guy's girlfriend called the cops I would go to jail, without a doubt.

So once again, where is this 'higher standard'?

My experience is that cops squeal like the proverbial pig if you even try to hold them to a normal standard. This sounds suspiciously like that.

"But I have a badge, I should be able to just hit people! Let's pretend other people can so I can complain that I can't!"

 

[Flying Pig]

If my civilian friend was at work when it happened and told me he got fired for it my response would be 'what did you expect?'

I suppose that's a fair point, but then you probably wouldn't be demonised on social media either.

If I did it and the drunk guy's girlfriend called the cops I would go to jail, without a doubt.

So once again, where is this 'higher standard'?

I imagine you'd be brought into the station where it would be quickly decided that there was no public interest in a prosecution. Being a policeman on a Friday/Saturday night often feels like being a teacher in the playground at breaktime - often you end up having to deal with people who just need their heads metaphorically banging together. People aren't usually prosecuted in minor cases where there's obvious mutual fault; if it's not obvious who's the victim, you probably shouldn't be bothering sending either of them to court. Take them in and give them to the custody sergeant to take care of overnight then send them away embarrassed and (hopefully) apologetic in the morning.

My experience is that cops squeal like the proverbial pig if you even try to hold them to a normal standard. This sounds suspiciously like that.

"But I have a badge, I should be able to just hit people! Let's pretend other people can so I can complain that I can't!"

Well, you can't 'just hit people', and nobody's saying that policemen should be able to. But it is a job where you end up in difficult situations, potentially risking your own life and safety on a very regular basis and often standing in front of highly unpredictable people. I think we should be able to forgive a degree of twitchy nerves when a police officer errs on the side of his own safety in the umpteenth close call in a month. Again, that doesn't extend to shooting people who clearly pose no threat, and that should quite rightly be dealt with. I oppose the Ferguson verdict not to bring the officer in question to trial. But the odds look different when being in danger is actually business as usual. I might take a 10% chance of being stabbed in a once-in-a-lifetime situation, but not in a once-a-week situation. Incidentally, I do have a rather nice scar on one of my legs where I misjudged one of those situations on the side of reasoned discussion and got a broken bottle for my trouble.

So I suppose in a way that I am arguing that policemen should be given more leeway to use force to defuse dangerous situations, simply because they end up in them far more often. The rule in the UK is that you have to be able to justify your actions before 12 totally random strangers if it comes down to it, not necessarily that you always have to make a perfect decision. Making a reasonable decision at the right time under pressure is usually sufficient.

 

[sophie]

Don't worry guys. Just don't resist arrest and everything will be fine!

Trigger Warning: Civil citizens being politely arrested

Spoiler :

Link to video.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I imagine you'd be brought into the station where it would be quickly decided that there was no public interest in a prosecution.

Trust me, if they get me in the station for hitting someone I will likely never be seen again except in an orange jumpsuit. Selective prosecution is alive and well in America. Public interest notwithstanding, the local cops would never let that opportunity pass.

Not that it is people who speak out against the cops on a regular basis who are really held to a higher standard or anything.

 

[sophie]

I imagine you'd be brought into the station where it would be quickly decided that there was no public interest in a prosecution. Being a policeman on a Friday/Saturday night often feels like being a teacher in the playground at breaktime - often you end up having to deal with people who just need their heads metaphorically banging together. People aren't usually prosecuted in minor cases where there's obvious mutual fault; if it's not obvious who's the victim, you probably shouldn't be bothering sending either of them to court. Take them in and give them to the custody sergeant to take care of overnight then send them away embarrassed and (hopefully) apologetic in the morning.

Depends on what race you are. White? You'll probably be ok, especially if you can afford a reasonably good lawyer. Black or Latino? That's assault and battery, bub. Say goodbye to 6 months of your life.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Depends on what race you are. White? You'll probably be ok, especially if you can afford a reasonably good lawyer. Black or Latino? That's assault and battery, bub. Say goodbye to 6 months of your life.

I'm white and I'd beat six months by a country mile.

Just sayin'.

 

[Flying Pig]

Perhaps this is a peculiarly American issue, then. If a mutually-caused fight with no significant injuries or history on either side even gets to a lawyer's attention then I'd say the police are doing something wrong.

 

[MobBoss]

I'm white and I'd beat six months by a country mile.

Just sayin'.

That's cause you're a felon. Repeat offender and all that.

 

[Senethro]

That's cause you're a felon. Repeat offender and all that.

I think you've caught someones eye Tim. Hes following you around and trying to get your attention now.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I think you've caught someones eye Tim. Hes following you around and trying to get your attention now.

I've noticed.

When eighty of your last hundred posts quote the same person they will recognize your affections no matter how obtuse that person may be.

 

[Senethro]

He got the hot hot hatebone goin'

 

[Timsup2nothin]

He got the hot hot hatebone goin'

That I would not want to check.

 

[JohnRM]

Don't worry guys. Just don't resist arrest and everything will be fine!

Trigger Warning: Civil citizens being politely arrested

Spoiler :

Link to video.

No, by all means, fight the power. Please resist, please.

 

[Angst]

Don't worry guys. Just don't resist arrest and everything will be fine!

Trigger Warning: Civil citizens being politely arrested

Spoiler :

Link to video.

This is disgusting.

No, by all means, fight the power. Please resist, please.

Several of the people in the video are being beaten up after obviously being pacified or obviously not fighting back in any way. And again, there are police pointing their guns at some guy with a camera. He is obviously terrified and his reactions could be anything as long as they stand this way. So they should not do that. It is poor aggression control and poor policing and I hope it is not representative for how American police operates.

EDIT: There are people running out to beat up some guy who was just in a car accident.

There are police holding a girl standing still who then choose to use pepper spray or whatever in her eyes.

Others tackle some girl nearby a wall.

This is the first three incidents of the video.

They are kicking people that are handcuffed.

They are punching a guy that is sitting down with his arms behind him. This incident shows 4+ police around him. He's sitting down and being punched.

I don't understand how you can react that way to that video.

EDIT: Going through the video case by case is insane. There's another car accident where the guy falls out of the car, 3+ police surround him with ready guns, and while he lies still with guns pointed at him, a policeman freaking runs up and stomps him on his head.

 

[Senethro]

I don't understand how you can react that way to that video.

It becomes clear when you know how JohnRM thinks. He thinks minorities destroyed his cities, so now he hates them back and gets his little distant revenge through cheering on cops acting like this.

Johns thoughts on the subject here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=205176&page=2

The battle for John's soul is not lost however.

Apparently he overcame his contempt of homosexuals in 2004... http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2220647&postcount=164 to later support gay marriage.

But its obvious that hate and resentment are strong within him.