Ferguson

[bhsup]

So it's okay to be a minority as long as you pretend that your minority doesn't exist?

I have not said any such thing. In fact, I thought I said pretty much just the opposite...

Assuming so makes you sound seriously racist, paranoid, or misinformed.

Cannot say I have ever lost any sleep over what other people incorrectly thought of me because of my views. Don't plan on starting now.

Why does it matter so much that someone is American first, and not Cajun, or human, or a Doctor Who fan? Is it so threatening that some people are just apathetic about nationality, and would fit in any country as well as another?

Hey, if you don't want to hold loyalty dear to your heart, that's your business. Just don't ever ask me to trust you to do the right thing if the country is on the line.

 

[hangman]

I have not said any such thing. In fact, I thought I said pretty much just the opposite...

Is that so? Because your last post indicates that you have no problem with the actual activities that make up a culture. But classifying some cultural action as affiliated with a particular culture is taboo for some reason... or is it the idea that an action can be cultural that grinds your gears? There's some kind of logical gap here, and it's getting harder to assume good faith.

Cannot say I have ever lost any sleep over what other people incorrectly thought of me because of my views. Don't plan on starting now.

You misunderstand my intent, I am more interested in correctly understanding this seemingly weird idea. Poor communication would be pretty unhelpful, if that's what's going on here. If you disagree that your comments seem racist, paranoid, or misinformed, I would like to know why. How you feel about that is not that important to me, tbh.

Hey, if you don't want to hold loyalty dear to your heart, that's your business. Just don't ever ask me to trust you to do the right thing if the country is on the line.

You didn't answer my question, and I'd like to know your answer. In any case, it was a hypothetical; I like DW but I'm not fanatical about it, etc. It's a simple fact that some people value different things. For some people, loyalty to country is a minor concern, others see it as nihilistic. You have no more right to impose your cultural schema onto others as they have to you.

 

[Flying Pig]

.Hey, if you don't want to hold loyalty dear to your heart, that's your business. Just don't ever ask me to trust you to do the right thing if the country is on the line.

If ordinary people are being asked to personally save their country, it's probably gone sufficiently wrong as to be beyond saving. To be honest, though, I don't think patriotism is a necessary (or sufficient) ingredient in doing the right thing by one's country, even heroically so - I should think you'd know that more than most.

 

[Senethro]

Military thinking isn't appropriate in civilian life. Time to take the uniform off maybe?

 

[Domen]

Ireland, Ruskieland, Germany, Italy, and Japan are foreign powers. Texas is a part of America.

Germaland, Italand and Japaland you mean. While Texaland is a part of Ameraland.

 

[JollyRoger]

Hey, if you don't want to hold loyalty dear to your heart, that's your business. Just don't ever ask me to trust you to do the right thing if the country is on the line.

So we should keep Southerners out of the military?

 

[Traitorfish]

I covered this.

Irish-American
Ruskie-American
German-American
Italian-American
Japanese-American

Ireland, Ruskieland, Germany, Italy, and Japan are foreign powers. Texas is a part of America.

Those are all ethnic identities, though, as well as states. Identifying oneself as a member of a particular ethnic group does not imply loyalty to a state which purports to represent that ethnic group. Nothing about identifying oneself as "Irish" in itself implies divided loyalities, however common they may turn out be in practice. (Although I suspect "not very".) Further, this began with you protesting "African-American" identity when Africa is not even a "foreign power", it's simply a landmass, and people are not generally loyal to landmasses.

In contrast, Texas is only a state, so expressing one's Texan-ness necessarily reads as a statement of divided loyalties. So why are you going down all Bill the Butcher on the former, but taking such a liberal attitude to the latter?

 

[gay_Aleks]

Because Texas will, at best, rabble-rouse a bit of noise. Russia? They'll launch nukes at you, and they're a bloody foreign power.

 

[Domen]

Identifying oneself as a member of a particular ethnic group does not imply loyalty to a state which purports to represent that ethnic group.

Exactly, but I noticed that many people don't get this.

Further, this began with you protesting "African-American" identity when Africa is not even a "foreign power", it's simply a landmass, and people are not generally loyal to landmasses.

Many Americans don't know that Africa is not a single country!

 

[gay_Aleks]

Many Americans don't know that Africa is not a single country!

They're still richer than Poland, though.

(A cheap shot to beat another cheap shot. Because why not.)

 

[Domen]

They suck half the world's oil!

And maybe learning that Africa is not a single country is a waste of time, and time is money.

 

[bhsup]

Those are all ethnic identities, though, as well as states.

Exactly, but I noticed that many people don't get this.

Ethnic identity is stupid old world thinking that should have died out ages ago. It has no place in the modern world, especially the new world part of the modern world. I've stated this before many times in the forums.

Want to be proud of being Scottish? Great! I am happy for you, but do it because you are proud to live in and be a citizen of Scotland, not because you're great-great-great-great whatever also happened to live there. And actually, being Scottish should give you insight on why Texas is different than a foreign power. You're Scottish AND British(*)! Just like Texans are Texans AND Americans.

(*) British meaning, in this connotation, a citizen of the United Kingdom. I could be wrong in its usage there as, frankly, y'all over there have never made it easy to know just what to call it... United Kingdomite? United Kingdomian?

 

[useless]

Where does your opinion fall in terms of native american tribes, in terms of self-identification?

For obvious reasons, some may not want to be seen as "American".

 

[bhsup]

Well let's get the term itself dealt with. I am a native American. I was born here and am as native as anyone else to this land. The term you want for original settlers of a land is aboriginal Americans, but some people seem to get offended by that. Let them.

Anyway, they need to have the reservations abolished and integrate fully with modern society. Harsh? Yes. Unfortunate? Maybe. But you know what? It was inevitable. A stone age society and an industrial age society simply cannot exist side by side, and you know what side is going to come out on top. If they want to have their own little cultural enclaves in various cities or regions, fine, so be it. But beyond that, take a big pill of "deal with it" and join the 21st century.

That said, I don't really like the idea of the govt reneging on the treaties made in good faith, so that's a pickle. I am going to cop out on this one and say I don't have all the answers.

 

[Domen]

Ethnic identity is stupid old world thinking that should have died out ages ago

People have various kinds of identity, including ethnic identity. Just deal with it and get over it. Being an Irish-American and being a loyal U.S. citizen are not contradicting each other, just like you can be Catholic, Muslim, etc. and still a loyal U.S. citizen even though this is a mostly Protestant country.

Those were not Irish-Americans who rebelled against the Union in 1861. Those were regular average good WASP Americans (for the most part).

The term you want for original settlers of a land is aboriginal American, but some people seem to get offended by that.

Indigenous can be used instead of aboriginal, if they don't like the term aboriginal. Anyway, I just call them Amerindians.

 

[Domen]

Ethnic identity is stupid old world thinking

Wrong, this is mostly new world thinking, at least the way how you understand it in the new world - i.e. as genealogical ancestry.

In Europe ethnicity has a much more cultural and a much less genealogical meaning. I am not "fully Polish" by ancestry, for example, yet I would never describe my ethnicity as anything other than Polish, or break it down to percentages. You seem to think that Europeans are not mixed and only Americans are mixed.

This is wrong, we have been mixing for thousands of years and you only for 200 or so, we are far more mixed.

I already wrote before in many threads, that in the new world you have Ethnic Tribalism.

You basically have tribes in the USA, people have tribal identities. In Europe we also had tribes, but that was during the Dark Ages.

What I am concerned about is that people here in the old world are beginning to think like you do.

We adopt your unfortunate definitions, just like we already adopted your fast food.

 

[Domen]

Also Takhisis agrees with us:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13288988&postcount=526

changing the name and doing nothing else is what the 'Mericans have done with their black people. First they became 'colo(u)red', then 'African-Americans'. But the problem remains unsolved. Calling someone what they are shouldn't be considered to be an insult. Maybe we could stop calling the Jews Jews…

 

[Traitorfish]

Ethnic identity is stupid old world thinking that should have died out ages ago. It has no place in the modern world, especially the new world part of the modern world. I've stated this before many times in the forums.

It may be that ethnic identities are misguided. But that doesn't mean that those identities don't exist, that they are not a meaningful aspect of people's lives and how people organise themselves. You can argue that people should transcend ethnic identities, but it's wholly unreasonable to expect that they simply forget them.

Anyway, they need to have the reservations abolished and integrate fully with modern society. Harsh? Yes. Unfortunate? Maybe. But you know what? It was inevitable. A stone age society and an industrial age society simply cannot exist side by side, and you know what side is going to come out on top. If they want to have their own little cultural enclaves in various cities or regions, fine, so be it. But beyond that, take a big pill of "deal with it" and join the 21st century.

Well, many Indian nations are sovereign entities in their own right, so the Federal government doesn't actually have the right to simply abolish them, any more than it has the right to abolish states.

 

[JollyRoger]

What's the deal with people thinking that Texas is part of the U.S.? We just send a guy to Preside every once in a while.

 

[hangman]

Well let's get the term itself dealt with. I am a native American. I was born here and am as native as anyone else to this land. The term you want for original settlers of a land is aboriginal Americans, but some people seem to get offended by that. Let them.

This is a pointless and obtuse exercise in semantics. You know very well what is meant by the term 'Native American.' If you choose to call them 'indigenous' or 'aboriginal' or 'Amerindian' it doesn't matter.

Anyway, they need to have the reservations abolished and integrate fully with modern society. Harsh? Yes. Unfortunate? Maybe.

They don't need to do anything. They have the right to do whatever they feel in this context.

But you know what? It was inevitable. A stone age society and an industrial age society simply cannot exist side by side, and you know what side is going to come out on top. If they want to have their own little cultural enclaves in various cities or regions, fine, so be it. But beyond that, take a big pill of "deal with it" and join the 21st century.

You've got to be kidding. I take it you've never met a 21st century Native American? Also, remember a couple of posts back when you denied advocating the destruction of minority cultures as discrete units? This quote contradicts that.

I am going to cop out on this one and say I don't have all the answers.

i.e. "I can't justify what I think but I won't change my mind anyway."

Want to be proud of being Scottish? Great! I am happy for you, but do it because you are proud to live in and be a citizen of Scotland, not because you're great-great-great-great whatever also happened to live there.

This isn't just some exercise in arcane geneological histories. Some people, believe it or not, are living in Native American/Cajun/Tejano/African American/etc. cultures right now.