Flag Burning!

[Veles]

The bottom line is this.

...It's a coloured rag representing a patch of special dirt.

However, the flag is supposed to represent a little bit more that just some current policy of your country you disagree with or something. It also (ideally) represents the ideals and some history, so unless you really don't like the whole thing that your country is all about (in which case why don't you quietly GTFO to somewhere else), you shouldn't really burn the flag. Your fathers probably died holding it. Have some class and respect, ffs.

Burning a flag for not being aesthetically pleasing is absolutely fine in my book, though.

 

[Traitorfish]

"I agree with Arwon, except that I completely disagree with Arwon"?

 

[Veles]

The fact, that it's a "coloured rag representing a patch of special dirt", shouldn't necessarily mean it shoud be devoid of all emotional connotations to everyone.

 

[Traitorfish]

What got my attentions was the "people who object to the hegemonic nationalism should go into self-imposed exile" bit. I think we're missing a few steps of logic, there.

 

[Veles]

"people who object to the hegemonic nationalism should go into self-imposed exile"

Whoa, wait a minute. That's not what I said. What I said is if you burn the flag, it's a symbolic act of wholeheartedly rejecting everything your country is about (including history and all the good stuff), not just, say, disliking the guy in charge, in which case there's little point for you to consider yourself to be of this country and you'd be better off somewhere else. If you want reforms in your country, burning a flag isn't a good way to send a signal, imo.

 

[Glassfan]

I think it hardly hurts the OWS that two individuals decided to burn a flag anymore than it hurt Christianity that the KKK burned thousands of crosses in people's yard without much reaction at all from most whites at the time. Ironically, it seemed that far more were more upset at flag burning on public property to protest the Vietnam War.

Largely agree. Those with fixed opinions will hardly change. Yet the large majority of citizens still undecided might find these constant, low level negative stories of violence and vandalism distasteful, just like the growing discomfiture of Christian moral authority. As you say.

You correctly point out that we've been through this before, and people are more used to the idea of flag burning. It's no longer completely outrageous. One gets used to it. When the Arab students burned American flags on our campuses in 1979-80 during the Iranian hostage crisis none were beaten or arrested.

 

[jtb1127]

It's a little sad this is even considered an issue.

It's a coloured rag representing a patch of special dirt.

Uh huh, I think we're both aware that most people don't share that view and they probably never will. As much as I agree with you, it's far from sad or even a little sad.

In point of fact, burning is considered the most honorable way to dispose of a flag.

I'm talking about burning the flag as a form of symbolic speech during protests. Such as what is described in the article.

I'm not sure what the amendment was, but I fully support someone's right to set whatever he/she wants on fire, unless it's money.. or unless it hurts someone else in some way.

Just in case you care or want to know, I'll throw a link to what I'm referring to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Desecration_Amendment

I don't see how!

I don't entirely agree with it, but it is understandable to some degree how burning the flag, the symbol of a country, could be unpatriotic. Though, for reasons described, and I think GW did a decent job with this, it can actually be the opposite.

 

[Traitorfish]

"people who object to the hegemonic nationalism should go into self-imposed exile"

Whoa, wait a minute. That's not what I said. What I said is if you burn the flag, it's a symbolic act of wholeheartedly rejecting everything your country is about (including history and all the good stuff), not just, say, disliking the guy in charge, in which case there's little point for you to consider yourself to be of this country and you'd be better off somewhere else.

No, that's pretty much the same thing. You don't seem to consider for a moment that a person may have objections to the hegemonic nationalism (and what is "everything your country is about" but the ideological fiction of the moment?) that doesn't imply an hostility to their community or their home. A person might be poorly-disposed to the United States qua the United States because they are a Native American who has suffered from the history of colonialism, for example, so to suggest is not only unreasonable, but misses the actual content of their objection quite entirely.

 

[Mango Elephant]

The last time I burned a flag, we cut out all the starts and stripes first and then threw them on the bonfire one at a time. That was at boy scout camp. Hardly unpatriotic.

Nationalism is stupid, I support unpatriotic burning because we as a society should figuratively burn patriotism because it breeds stupidity.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Whoa, wait a minute. That's not what I said. What I said is if you burn the flag, it's a symbolic act of wholeheartedly rejecting everything your country is about (including history and all the good stuff), not just, say, disliking the guy in charge, in which case there's little point for you to consider yourself to be of this country and you'd be better off somewhere else. If you want reforms in your country, burning a flag isn't a good way to send a signal, imo.

It is nothing of the sort, as evidenced by a number of veterans who did so to show their disdain for specific events.

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/17/w...ears-blowing-smoke.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

June 6, 1966. New York City. World War II veteran Sidney Street burned flag to protest Mississippi shooting of civil rights activist James Meredith. During the flag burning, Street proclaimed, "If they let that happen to Meredith we don't need an American flag."

February 1968. Richardson, Tex. Former officer in Women's Army Corps burned flag in her front yard as anti-war protest.

Vietnam Vets Burn Flag In Protest

Protesters Defy New Anti-Desecration Law, Burn Flags

SEATTLE — About 200 people watched as radical Vietnam veterans torched an American flag early Saturday, minutes after a federal law prohibiting desecration of the flag took effect.

Alternately chanting "Burn, baby, burn" and singing the national anthem, the crowd cheered as the flag was burned by members of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, who said the new law is an attempt to ram patriotism down their throats.

"We're burning the flag to say we will not stand by to see forced patriotism. Abridgement of the First Amendment right (of free speech) is the first infringement," said Brian Chambers, who served in Vietnam in 1970 and 1971.

The protesters were jeered by a small group of skinhead youths. Some punches were thrown and bottles tossed. A dozen police cars arrived and officers ended the confrontation by blocking off streets and sending the demonstrators home. No arrests were made and no injuries were reported.

 

[Angst]

This thread makes me think because I hope that Americans don'e believe being patriotic is inherently a good thing.

Most of the times, it's the opposite.

 

[MobBoss]

Flag burners are scum. Nothing good comes from it.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Flag burning legislation should only be focused on fire safety and nothing more.

 

[jtb1127]

Flag burning legislation should only be focused on fire safety and nothing more.

I was thinking the same thing after reading this post by Warpus:

I fully support someone's right to set whatever he/she wants on fire, unless it's money.. or unless it hurts someone else in some way.

I think the last part of the sentence clears it up though.

 

[Ajidica]

The irony to all this is that the kind of people most likely to get their balls in a twist are also the ones most likely to own a lot of flag-themed kitsch, which to my mind is infinitely more disrespectful than any form of political desecration. At least by burning the flag you are attributing a certain symbolic weight, you are asserting that it is something worth burning, but I can't say the same for pillows or dinner plates.

Finally! Somebody else has the same view as me! I can't be the only one who things it is more disrespectful to dribble BBQ sauce over the flag shirt, or rubbing your rear on a flag chair.

Flag burners are scum. Nothing good comes from it.

At least we now know how much MobBoss likes freedom of expression.

 

[Formaldehyde]

And feelings don't count. It is amazing how many Americans simply don't understand or tolerate dissent.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

Flag burners are scum. Nothing good comes from it.

It makes nationalists cry and butthurt pretty hard, so it has some pros.

 

[kochman]

Spoiler :

I'm mostly bringing up the topic after looking at the thread titled, "The Symbols of the State" and having read about occupy protesters doing it.


Link

Several things:
-Would you support a flag burning amendment such as the one that was shot down in 2006 or do you support laws in your own country which prohibit the burning of the national flag?
-Do you think flag burning is an appropriate tool to use in protests and what consequences does it result in?
-Is flag burning unpatriotic?

My opinion:
Laws and prohibitions banning flag burning are unconstitutional (in the US) and those that exist are unjust. Flag burning is not inherently unpatriotic and it is also an effective means of demonstration.

No amendment, it is free speech.
Is it an appropriate tool? If by appropriate you mean, useful, then, no. It mainly turns people off.
It is unpatriotic. If you don't like the system, work to change it. Doing something that insults a lot of people is not very constructive. It is in very poor taste... and will incite some to violence, no doubt... burn at your own risk.

 

[Lillefix]

It is in very poor taste... and will incite some to violence, no doubt... burn at your own risk.

Then we should perhaps burn flags it until these people stop being violent.

 

[MobBoss]

At least we now know how much MobBoss likes freedom of expression.

And feelings don't count. It is amazing how many Americans simply don't understand or tolerate dissent.

I expressed my opinion, but didnt say it should be outlawed or that they didnt have a right to do it. Ajidica, i'm sure there is some expression you dont like, and Form, my comments still allow for tolerance. You seem to think that tolerance needs to equate to acceptance. It doesnt.

It makes nationalists cry and butthurt pretty hard, so it has some pros.

And like I said, pissing someone off just to piss them off doesnt lead to anything worthwhile. It just leads to violence, eventually. The 'push me, shove you' attitude doesnt accomplish anything really, and isnt a 'pro' at all...its just immature attention whoring.