[RD] Florida School Shooting

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Many countries have drastically reduced their gun deaths and mass shootings, the US could do the same but many people in the US prefer to see thousands die every year rather than take the necessary measures.

Many developed countries have drastically lowered violence and homicide rates in general, but gun control measures probably had little to do with it. They have address societal ills across the board. Plus a lot of them already had extremely low rates of gun-related crimes to begin with, not to mention lower rates of gun ownership. Strict European-style gun control wouldn't be practical or realistic in the US for a host of reasons.
 
Sommer, my being me is not a hobby. And I am a man that owns the tools to violence and uses them how he uses them, and does not use them how he does not.

There will never be a shortage of people who are full of ideas on how other people need to be forced to change. And I'm kinda there on drastic reinterpretation of the 2nd and disarmament. But I'm willing to talk in as good a faith as I can manage about magazine capacities, firing mechanisms, tactical performances, etc. Bear in mind, I'm not an expert, and I do think the NRA is frequently crazy.
 
Many developed countries have drastically lowered violence and homicide rates in general, but gun control measures probably had little to do with it. They have address societal ills across the board. Plus a lot of them already had extremely low rates of gun-related crimes to begin with, not to mention lower rates of gun ownership. Strict European-style gun control wouldn't be practical or realistic in the US for a host of reasons.

The n°1 example is Australia. It's one of the countries most resembling the US, and it solved its gun problem.
 
The steak is that its high time to treat hobbies like hobbies, especially hobbies that are resulting in psychos getting guns and slaughtering schoolchildren.

The real problem with guns, statistically speaking, isn't this. Though I do understand that using the school shootings as a propaganda angle is generally somewhat effective. The real problems we solve through strict limitations on gun ownership are 1) all the people whose access to guns means their suicide attempts succeed. And 2) all the men with guns who murder their wives, daughters, girlfriends, and so on because their minds have been destroyed by toxic masculinity. School shootings are a very minor cause of death by comparison.

There will never be a shortage of people who are full of ideas on how other people need to be forced to change.

This gaslighting is kinda gross tbh
 
In what universe is less than a tenth of a percent of a group causing problems "demonstrably and dangerously irresponsible"? You know the above statement is factually incorrect, but you will run with it anyway to push your "ban what I fear" agenda.

And yes, you and everyone else who wants a ban only want it because you fear these firearms. That is literally the only reason anyone wants anything banned. I must say I do find it odd for people to be so afraid of inanimate objects. I'd be more afraid of my neighbor's dog than his AR-15.

First, you ignored my last "do you want to back up this thing that is obviously just an opinion that you hold that you present as 'how it should be,' so there is not a doubt in my mind that you will not be backing up this 'less than a tenth of a percent are causing problems' piece of off the top of the head nonsense that you are using to support your desire based position. (But, but, I waaaaaaant one!!! C'mon man, I realllllly want one!!!!)

Second, the whole "anyone disagreeing with me is just scared" line is tiresome, and I really wish you would take that out in the face to face world and find one of the many people who would be happy to demonstrate the inaccuracy by turning you and your AR-15 into a scale model of a lollipop.

Now, back to your BS claim that is numeric, thus manageable in the current medium. There are millions of firearms in the hands of people who did not legally buy them. Those firearms were not built at the 'illegal firearms factory' and distributed through the Gun-Mart" illegal division. They were, at some point, legally purchased by gun owners who in one way or another have not been responsible about what became of them. Are you suggesting that all of those passed through the hands of only a tenth of a percent of legal gun buyers and owners? If so, is there anything to base this on other than a whim? Because if not it should not be taken seriously.
 
As for the whole mass shooting thing: I really think we need to look at societal and cultural differences to find out why overall gun violence in Australia is much lower than in the US despite having comparable levels (proportionally) of private gun ownership.
As I have said before, I know that you personally don't mean it this way, but this kind of statement is too often used as a dog whistle for "there's too many minorities and heathen religions in the US"... can you see how? Again Im not saying you personally, its rhetorical, so answer , or not based on your fancy.
This is one of those rare moments where I agree with Commodore. I even acknowledge that the NRA might have a point.
See above... I know you're being clever ;), but I don't think people deprived of AR-15s, resorting to running over their neighbors with cars is enough to conclude that white Christian people are specifically and uniquely incapable of playing nice with others.
No, I mean gun control proponents in general. At least in the courtrooms. But I don't think any proposed measures so far would have stopped the Parkland tragedy, and I don't think they will in the future.
Source for the bolded?
Many developed countries have drastically lowered violence and homicide rates in general, but gun control measures probably had little to do with it.
Source for the bolded?
Sommer, my being me is not a hobby. And I am a man that owns the tools to violence and uses them how he uses them, and does not use them how he does not.
As a defensive player, I used to launch myself, helmet-first into the opposing teams running back as he attempted to catch a screen pass.,, that's not allowed anymore.

The helmet is a "tool to violence" that I used how I used and did not use how I did not use... Now that use for which I used, is heretofore, unacceptable, and the users of said tools have had to adapt and use said tool differently. The world did not end... China has not invaded... and no one got sent to concentration camps as a result. Again... you dont need an AK-47 to prevent a rabbit from eating your crops.
 
If your claims about yourself are only remotely true,

I like how you try to imply I'm a liar about my military service, despite the fact that I've proven it here multiple times. You may not have seen it, but just because you haven't seen the proof doesn't mean it's not there. A few years ago I even posted a copy of my DD-214 (with personally identifying information blacked out obviously).

you must have shot something like a 9mm semi-automatic pistol and an assault rifle in your life.

Nope, I shot just about every man-portable and crew-served weapon available to the United States Army, with the exception of designated marksman or sniper weapons (wasn't a good enough shot to get to use those).

And still you claim they have comparable rate of fire in semi-automatic mode?

Yeah, because the rate of fire of any semi-automatic firearm is really only limited by how fast the shooter can squeeze the trigger.

a military-grade semi-automatic pistol.

See there you go trying to make things sound scary again. There is no such thing as a "military-grade" pistol. Handguns are probably one of the few cases where models sold to civilians are the exact same as the models supplied to the military and police.

If you had a three-round burst setting on a 9mm pistol, your third shot would certainly be going up into the sky, far away from any target.

Which is why handguns typically don't have burst or full-auto without modifications. Not sure why you bring this up though since we are talking about semi-automatic fire.

Two hundred and fifty years of the right to possess the tools of effective lethal force, irrespective of youth, fitness, wealth, and enormous life investment in the training and practice of violence... are neither a hobby nor a loophole.

Don't bother Farm Boy. These guys are all dead set on banning guns and they don't care about legal precedent when it goes against something they want. Thankfully, people like Lexicus, Tim, and Sommer have been trying to ban guns for the better part of the last hundred years and our government continues to just ignore them. And that's the way it should be.

especially hobbies that are resulting in psychos getting guns and slaughtering schoolchildren.

Appeal to emotion. That's a logical fallacy that has no place in any debate. Come on man, I learned that in a freshman level critical thinking course. Which interestingly is a big reason the gun control crowd gets ignored so often. All of your arguments are emotional ones. That can only take you so far in convincing people. At the end of the day, you need facts and logic, which you don't have. That's why you always have to wait for the next mass shooting to get anyone to listen to you at all on this issue.

Seems most of these attacks on schools are perpetrated by kids, banning gun ownership till 21 would cut down on the death toll.

Not really. They'll just use their parents' guns. Which is what most school shooters do anyway, this case was one of the rare instances in which the shooter purchased the weapon he used on his own. And the argument of "well parents need to lock up their guns" doesn't really fly either. They do lock up their guns. Problem is kids are sneaky, thieving little you-know-whats. They'll find a way to access their parents' guns if they really, really want to. That's why I take the bolt out of mine and take it to work with me. Can't fire the rifle without the bolt.

you don't need it to chase off (or kill) the odd prowler/or pickpocket

Actually, I think an AR-15 would do a wonderful job of scaring away a would-be criminal without having to resort to deadly force. As stated earlier, these weapons can be made to look very scary, especially to someone without experience with such weapons. So someone breaks into my house and sees me there with an AR-15 with a tactical light, holographic sight, and one of those very tactical-looking forward grips, that might be enough to make them think they bit off more than they can chew and just run away. And I would have done it without having to wound or kill them, and I wouldn't have to waste taxpayer dollars by calling the police since the thief is gone and likely won't return.

The theory behind it being the same theory behind riot control. Basically you want to make yourself look as intimidating as possible to make the other person feel like they can't "win" and encourage them to leave. And an AR-15 looks much more intimidating than a shotgun or handgun.
 
No, I mean gun control proponents in general. At least in the courtrooms. But I don't think any proposed measures so far would have stopped the Parkland tragedy, and I don't think they will in the future.
You think that securing all weapons in a militia controlled armory would not have stopped the Parkland tragedy?
 
The real problem with guns, statistically speaking, isn't this. Though I do understand that using the school shootings as a propaganda angle is generally somewhat effective. The real problems we solve through strict limitations on gun ownership are 1) all the people whose access to guns means their suicide attempts succeed. And 2) all the men with guns who murder their wives, daughters, girlfriends, and so on because their minds have been destroyed by toxic masculinity. School shootings are a very minor cause of death by comparison.

"Don't cloud the issue by talking about events that are only a minority of shootings, instead you should be talking about the number of women killed in shootings."

Very quick Google search shows the tiny flaw in this reasoning.

Edit: I should just say that I don't actually think there's anything wrong with focusing on something that isn't actually THE biggest issue, if you have reasons for why that is important to you or why you think it needs addressing. But to do that in the same breath as telling other people that they shouldn't do that takes some gall.
 
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I don't want an ak-47. I still think your take on the 2nd is bumpkis.
 
All of your arguments are emotional ones.

Lexicus: *cites epidemiology papers demonstrating that you're more likely to shoot yourself than an assailant with your gun*

Commodore: "Yeah but I just like the feeling that a gun gives me. All your arguments are emotional anyway."
 
Appeal to emotion. That's a logical fallacy that has no place in any debate.
Oh... so we're doing that? That thing where we identify and classify the logical fallacies in each others' statements, like 1st year law school students, instead of just talking to each other like regular human beings? For someone who constantly complains about law school/lawyer tactics, you certainly love to use them yourself... tastes like a double standard... Anyway... seems boring to me, but OK... to quote @Farm Boy ... as you wish.
Actually, I think an AR-15 would do a wonderful job of scaring away a would-be criminal without having to resort to deadly force.
Of course it would... As would screaming and yelling
As stated earlier, these weapons can be made to look very scary, especially to someone without experience with such weapons. So someone breaks into my house and sees me there with an AR-15 with a tactical light, holographic sight, and one of those very tactical-looking forward grips, that might be enough to make them think they bit off more than they can chew and just run away. And I would have done it without having to wound or kill them, and I wouldn't have to waste taxpayer dollars by calling the police since the thief is gone and likely won't return.

The theory behind it being the same theory behind riot control. Basically you want to make yourself look as intimidating as possible to make the other person feel like they can't "win" and encourage them to leave. And an AR-15 looks much more intimidating than a shotgun or handgun.
So this whole argument is an example of a false Generalization logical Fallacy, specifically a Hasty Generalization fallacy, as well as an Appeal to Probability Fallacy and a Base Rate Fallacy. It's also a pretty good example of an Incredulity fallacy. I invite my fellow CFC'ers to identify other fallacies in this mess... I'm sure there are others ... I just don't have time to identify them all :lol:
I don't want an ak-47. I still think your take on the 2nd is bumpkis.
I know. Like I said, I want a SCOTUS ruling, not a peanut gallery ruling.
 
Professionals do trend like that.
 
You stopped talking to me like a human being a long time ago.

That was me, and I did it primarily because when a point is made against your position you ignore it, then come back later and act like it was never said. Plus of course you want to play "gun toting former military don't mess with me bad ass," and I always find that game contemptible.
 
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