Foreign Policy: UniversCiv

[2metraninja]

Great! This is what I was looking for! Thanks, Sommers

I only want to shorten the explanation about WPC. I would like to not explain them why we want them to not declare war to CP, Poly or WPC. We simply mention those 3 nations list and tell them we want Uciv word they will not declare war to those 3.

 

[Sommerswerd]

It is not a bid deal, but the word "payed" in the last paragraph should say "paid" instead.

 

[2metraninja]

I think it is time to send this last version:

Greetings, Team Uciv,

In the past we were able to find common ground, but lately things have gone really wrong between us. We are pleasantly surprised you finally realized now how wrong you were and come to seek a way to live in peace again. Coming to ask for our friendship is a really good sign.

You have quite a lot of sins towards us to pay for. First you tried to settle the Zulu land we fought hard for. Then we ask you to negotiate about this and you said you will help us against RB, but the next thing we see is you are giving a huge amount of money to our enemies. Then we ask you if you could give us a loan too, and you say you will discuss this but then you never answered us.

Now you come and ask us to be friends again. We decided against telling you that all is forgiven while we still feel so mistreated by you. You have deceived us in the past despite pretending to be our friends. To which Gods will you swear this time to make us believe your friendly intentions? We need some concrete actions from you to demonstrate your friendly intentions.

CP and Poly are mad at you and want your blood. We are not happy with you either for making us lose like 2000+ additional hammers in soldiers more because of RB having rifles. You have cost our allies the same, or more. CP lost more than 4000 because of your schemes. We have agreement to not extend NAPs with you right now.

To be friends with you, we have to convince our allies it is not worth attacking you with our combined armies as we intended initially, but instead to make you friend. I am not absolutely sure it will be possible at all, but we can talk to them. You are right that it is only our border that is long enough for easy war, so it will mostly depends on our opinion, and hopefully our allies will take our advice.

One thing is certain. You will have to make some serious efforts and offer some real benefits to make us think of you as friendly nation. Promises wont work this time. We had discussion and came to possible solution. Because we had to harm ourselves with drafting/whipping additional like 50 population to react to the new RB weapons which they were able to get due to your financial aid, we think we deserve financial compensation from you. We also want to be sure that this is not just a ploy for you to make War on someone else to enrich yourselves while we are bound by a NAP.

We think that either you give us the Great Spy that RB had paid to you for your help, or you give us the same amount of money you gave to RB as loan on preferential terms - the money are to be returned 25 turns after they are given without interest. Also, you must promise not to declare War on your neighbors Poly and WPC during our NAP.

If you agree to this, we will see your good will to be friends again, we will consider your recent transgressions null and sign a NAP to t240 with you to make it formal.


Team CFC

 

[cav scout]

I would drop the last two paragraphs and go with the original idea of enumerating all of our grievances but leaving what we want for a later message. I think the impact would be much greater and they would be more open and willing to agree to terms that we present later.

Also, the above message basically says we will accept a Great Spy or a loan of the same amount that RB got which we will repay without interest. Seems to me like we are wanting more than this from them...

So lets send a message without specific requests/terms and add a final paragraph that says something like "If you are truly sincere about making amends then let us know and we will tell you the specifics of what you will need to do. We await your response."

 

[talonschild]

This.

 

[2metraninja]

They already said in their message that they are ready to pay. 1 GSpy or 3500 gold to use for 25 turns without paying interest is great. We will get quick to PP, Liberalism for Free Speech, Education. Only the PP and FS benefits will pay for those 3500 gold as if we get the money as gift. Plus earlier univercities, OU, etc, etc, the snowball effect... Plus we will get their promise they wont attack WPC, so we can take 5-6 more cities from them and become actual 50% bigger than Uciv. We gain secure border and potential ally (normally when the time passes and you cant declare war to someone, the course of the game takes you to getting in troubles with other guys and your initially "only neutral neighbor" quickly becomes "your best buddy available". Not always, but it works most of the times like this).

If we scare them off with imaginary huge demands or if we actually put unacceptable demands, they might simply say: "Then fuсk you guys. We have rifles, we will have canons and cavalries way before t200 when our NAP ends, so, come and try your luck in war."

Lets send this message with the demands, each more day delay hurts our chances for gain. You know - you forge the steel while still hot. They came to us clearly asking us for agreement. They might reevaluate their chances if we dont answer them for long.

 

[2metraninja]

Guys, I am sending it. We dont have time to lose. Getting the GSpy or the money will be huge for us. We cant dream for bigger reward honestly. I am not sure we will get even any of those, but we are obliged to try. The sooner, the bigger chance.

 

[2metraninja]

Sent this:

CivFanatics Team <diplo.civfanatics@gmail.com> (sent by dimo.neykov@gmail.com)

1:17 PM (4 minutes ago)

to Lala
Greetings, Team Uciv,

In the past we were easy able to find common ground, but lately things have gone really wrong between us. We are pleasantly surprised you finally realized now how wrong you were and come to seek a way to live in peace again. Coming to ask for our friendship is a really good sign.

You have quite a lot of sins towards us to pay for. First you tried to settle the Zulu land we fought hard for. Then we ask you to negotiate about this and you said you will help us against RB, but the next thing we see is you are giving a huge amount of money to our enemies. Then we ask you if you could give us a loan too, and you say you will discuss this but then you never answered us.

Now you come and ask us to be friends again. We decided against telling you that all is forgiven while we still feel so mistreated by you. You have deceived us in the past despite pretending to be our friends. To which Gods will you swear this time to make us believe your friendly intentions? We need some concrete actions from you to demonstrate your friendly intentions.

CP and Poly are mad at you and want your blood. We are not happy with you either for making us lose like 2000+ additional hammers in soldiers more because of RB having rifles. You have cost our allies the same, or more. CP lost more than 4000 because of your schemes. We have agreement to not extend NAPs with you right now.

To be friends with you, we have to convince our allies it is not worth attacking you with our combined armies as we intended initially, but instead to make you friend. I am not absolutely sure it will be possible at all, but we can talk to them. You are right that it is only our border that is long enough for easy war, so it will mostly depends on our opinion, and hopefully our allies will take our advice.

One thing is certain. You will have to make some serious efforts and offer some real benefits to make us think of you as friendly nation. Promises wont work this time. We had discussion and came to possible solution. Because we had to harm ourselves with drafting/whipping additional like 50 population to react to the new RB weapons which they were able to get due to your financial aid, we think we deserve financial compensation from you. We also want to be sure that this is not just a ploy for you to make War on someone else to enrich yourselves while we are bound by a NAP.

We think that either you give us the Great Spy that RB had paid to you for your help, or you give us the same amount of money you gave to RB as loan on preferential terms - the money are to be returned 25 turns after they are given without interest. Also, you must promise not to declare War on your neighbors Poly and WPC during our NAP.

If you agree to this, we will see your good will to be friends again, we will consider your recent transgressions null and sign a NAP to t240 with you to make it formal.


Team CFC

 

[2metraninja]

We got answer from Uciv. Not so bad and not so great either.

I read it as they will give us some money, but want to conquer WPC. And want to wait few more days to get reply from MZ, because they speak with him too:

Lala Civilization

5:14 AM (3 hours ago)

to me
Hello Team CFC,

I answer to you tonight because i don't want you to wait too long. But i precise that the official position of the UCIV team is not settled yet and that we will need at least 2 or 3 days to give you a definitive answer.

But i already want to tell you some things in order to discuss on true basis. Like i said before, we had no other choice about RB...what could we do ? should we have accept to see 3 civilizations grabbing big lands easily and without any moves from us ? or help you too ? it was stupid to help you and RB together, especially cause RB was condamned despite of our help...i'm sure you can understand all these points.

But there is an other thing, most important : you said that our help to RB has caused many troubles to you. Maybe a little yes... But the truth is that our help was not so huge : 1500 gold, to help them to reach rifles faster. Furthermore, they had to give us money back with 50% interest : so 2250 gold. As you know, they were unable to pay us back all this money. But they gave us part of it : around 1000 gold i think, and it was during your wartime. If they didnt give us back this money, things could have been worst for you. And they gave us the great spy to balance the money they were unable to return. Same observation on this : it would have been more difficult for you or for lizzy if they used great spy against you...They didnt and we did not either until this day (and we won't used it if we can stay friends). Anyway your mathematics on this subject seems to us a little bit exaggerated But its not so important.

Second thing is that i personaly still believe you don't have interest to a war with us. I mean, i really think this, its not a strategy to stay alive Because if there is a general war against us, you will be on first line cause of geography...and we will have nothing to lose, except the live, that we will lost in any case...

Thats why i'm sure we can discuss. On money, im sure we can reach an agreement, maybe better than you think.

On diplomacy, it is probably impossible. We can accept a deal on your favor, to excuse our past attitude, to survive and to have a chance of playing some role in the game. But i think we can't accept a diktat which will eliminate our strategic independance. We can't be a nation under control like the Germany in the twenties...Besides, it would definitely exit us from the game, especially after all civs, including yours, have extended. But on this point again, there are certainly some things to discuss between us...maybe it would be a way to restore our friendship like you suggested.

Once again, i speak personally tonight and we will send you a complete answer quickly.

But don't forget that french are special peoples : we could assume and pay for our mistakes but we are attached to our independance like De Gaulle, and coalitions are never easy against us (remember Napoléon and the 100 days) cause we are determined to fight for our freedom and independance (and we believe that people in RB's empire were not as convinced as our own citizens). That's why i ask you to be open-minded on discussion and not to push us on extreme solutions.

Have a nice week end Team CFC !

Zioun

 

[Aivoturso]

I think this went pretty well. It seems that they are willing to bribe us and possibly with quite a good bribe. IMO we should still aim for NAP and some form of cooperation with these guys. I'd like to have our northern flank secure when our NAPs with CP & CivFr end and dung hits the fan.

 

[2metraninja]

Guys, I think we got golden deal

Personally I am happy about the prospect of us getting 1000 gold as bribe AND!!! getting a Great Spy in exchange of our Great Scientist. Our GS will give us something like 2000-2500 beakers, where the GSpy can give us like 7000-8000 beakers worth of techs!!! Thats what I call a good gain. I only hope we finalize the deal quick and smooth, we will be very good I think

&#1072;&#1079;: hi there
its 2metraninja of CFC
Zioun: hello
&#1072;&#1079;: we received your email
Zioun: ok
&#1072;&#1079;: is there need to wait for some vote or something on your team or we can discuss details live here?
Zioun: officially we have to wait a vote, but i think we can already discuss some points, it will strenghten us for the vote
&#1072;&#1079;: ok
so, what you mean by keeping your independence?
we are not wanting to take it away
we want partners, not vasals
&#1048;&#1079;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1086; &#1074; 20:19, &#1089;&#1098;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;
Zioun: i think you know what we mean : if we have no possibility to attack others civs during the time of our nap, it is a threat to the independance of our diplomacy...
&#1048;&#1079;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1086; &#1074; 20:20, &#1089;&#1098;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;
&#1072;&#1079;: OK, I understand this
and I will go ahead and guess it is not Poly which you want to attack, as you are proposing them NAP too
&#1048;&#1079;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1086; &#1074; 20:24, &#1089;&#1098;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;
Zioun: probably not : its in the order of things that the weakest disappear, but i insist on the fact that it is only a possibility we want to keep, its not a definite plan (or we would have make some army sooner), what dou think about that ?
i add one thing : at some point civs have to grow or they disappear...you did this in practice
&#1072;&#1079;: I think that WPC know what to expect from you
not that they can do much about it
but this is something which we must agree about
there is time to t200 though
first thing first.
we want to know if you are going to compensate us for your help to RB
so we see you want to be our friends for real
Zioun: yeah, thats a thing we could do i think but you can understand that we can't offer you money without any assurances for us
&#1072;&#1079;: I do understand your reasons why you did that, but this does not change the fact it harmed us and you made a wrong choice back then
what assurances you want from us?
we said that if we see you are showing respect, we can be friends
&#1048;&#1079;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1086; &#1074; 20:31, &#1089;&#1098;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;
Zioun: ok lets talk about assurances : if we give you money, we can offer you to not give it back to us...a free gift. That we can do. But in exchange we want to be sure that we will remain friends. so a longer nap is the best mutual proof of it, right ?
&#1048;&#1079;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1086; &#1074; 20:32, &#1089;&#1098;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;
&#1072;&#1079;: of course
this is what we offered you I think
Zioun: ok its nice how long can be the nap in your mind ? we just talk about an idea yet...
&#1072;&#1079;: I did not asked our number-crunches and demo-hackers yet, but I was told 1500 gold you gave to RB is small than the real amount you gave them
I dont know we said t240, which is 60 turns from now
anything above 50 turns is very long NAP
especially in the modern times we enter
however, I think t250 can be arranged too
Zioun: yes we agree on this. I can garantee you that i told you the truth about the 1500 gold. It was our agreement, not much !
&#1072;&#1079;: not that we have something in our mind at t241, just it is common sense and good for both of us to have not endless NAP
Zioun: yes i agree on it too
&#1048;&#1079;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1086; &#1074; 20:37, &#1089;&#1098;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;
Zioun: so lets make suppositions. Would you agree, at this moment, that we give you 1000 gold, with no return, in the next 10 turns, in exchange of a nap until t240 ?
&#1072;&#1079;: I have to propose this to the team
I will come to you in less than 2 days
maybe tomorrow
our team is international and we have North and South Americans beside Europeans too
Zioun: ok thx, but as we know each other now, and we speak honestly, tell me what you personaly think about it ?
&#1072;&#1079;: I dont know
1000 is decent sum
Zioun: with no pay back
&#1072;&#1079;: but we were hoping that we somehow can get the Great Spy
ok, 1000 with no payback is your offer, I will put it to the team
is there a way we can buy maybe the GSpy from you?
Zioun: we can offer you the garantee of not using the great spy against you too
why it is so important for you ?
we can maybe discuss yes
&#1072;&#1079;: ok, please, ask your team mates
about the GSpy
we are somewhat behind with the techs
we can steal some techs from you
and from other teams which will make it easier for us
to steal
Zioun: lol i'm not sure we are behind in tech !
you have some techs we don't have !
&#1072;&#1079;: yes, of course
Zioun: just in case : you think it will be possible for you to give us an other GP in exchange of the spy ? anything you want ?
a prophet, an artist or anything ?
&#1048;&#1079;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1086; &#1074; 20:45, &#1089;&#1098;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;
&#1072;&#1079;: what about a Great Scientist?
can we have a deal where we get the 1000 gold and we exchange Great Persons?
we will add fair split of WPC lands too
Zioun: yes it would be perfect, i have to talk with my team of course... but i think its possible !
ahah
&#1072;&#1079;: lets talk serious
WPC screwed in every possible way
we like them
I know most of them
but they are simply irrelevant at this point
Zioun: yes i share this opinion !
but you have a nap with them right ?
&#1072;&#1079;: till t200
same like you
Zioun: ok so we have to discuss on the land, but we hope that we can have the major part, cause you have already seize big lands; i think it would be fair ?
&#1048;&#1079;&#1087;&#1088;&#1072;&#1090;&#1077;&#1085;&#1086; &#1074; 20:50, &#1089;&#1098;&#1073;&#1086;&#1090;&#1072;
&#1072;&#1079;: yes, we got war spoils. but I must tell you there is other player for WPC's lands
Poly have NAP with WPC to t200 too
ok, I like what we said to each-other
lets post in our forums and speak again in 1-2 days, right?
Zioun: we were conscious of it about Poly. maybe we can find a global agreement. OK, nice to talk with you, see you soon
&#1072;&#1079;: cool, see you soon
nice chatting with you
Zioun: same bye bye !

 

[YossarianLives]

Yeah this is absolutely perfect. Let's finalize this as soon as we can.

I feel like if we can get this deal, as well as half of CivFr and part of WPC, we just want permanent NAPs with everyone else and we can just build up and win the space race no problem.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Remember that we can't take the WPC lands anyway... so that is no big loss. We are already the score leader and we can't afford to start gobbling up more territory, we need to have our score be as close to the others as possible, especially Poly. You rarely get everything you ask for in a negotiation. Good work team

I think cavscouts sentiment that Poly is working behind the scenes to steer us towards these recent developments is a good instinct, and CP is maybe involved too, but TBH such is to be expected when playing with (against) humans.

 

[2metraninja]

We must finish our deal with Uciv. Sending the following in just few hours:

Greetings again Team Uciv.

Based on our last talks, we offer you the following deal:

- NAP to t240 (no one will declare war to the other)
- 1000 gold from Uciv to CFC (10 turns x 100 gold each)
- Exchange of Great Persons - CFC will deliver 1 Great Scientist to Uciv and Uciv will deliver 1 Great Spy to CFC
- All old transgressions are forgotten.
- Friendship to each-other.

Reply with your acceptance and we can consider the deal in effect.

Team CFC

 

[2metraninja]

Sent.

 

[2metraninja]

I am glad to report we got a deal with Uciv:

Lala Civilization

11:33 PM (22 minutes ago)

to me
Hello, i'm happy to inform you that team uciv accept this agreement !

Best regards,

Zioun for Uciv

And right this turn we got the first half of the money - 500 gold.

 

[YossarianLives]

Awesome! Way to go 2metra!

 

[2metraninja]

We need to figure out when the GSpy will arrive. Or to remind them we are expecting it at least.

Also, I would want to use the case to tell Uciv what Cp are up to. We might not have money to give to WPC, but Uciv are rich. They were making 850 gpt last turn. So they can give money to WPC to research Engineering to be able to whip pikes. Plus Uciv can produce rifles and hopefully have no clause with CP for consulting before giving units, so they can feed some 10 rifles to WPC, which will be nice. All those are just theories of course, but nothing hurt to try it.

At least we can get some good point with them - see, we tell you how the bad CP want to steal your logical lebensraum.

Salut, Uciv!

We are sorry that we must bring you the bad news, but it must be said. We have strong suspicions CP/Aztec are preparing to attack WPC. It will happen very soon. This or the next one or two turns. As you know yourself, WPC have no means to protect against Ot4e's cavalries. We have a NAP with CP with clause to consult with them before giving military units to someone else, but if you feel this way, you can consider helping your long-time old friend WPC with some 10-15 rifles. Also, as you are the main pretender for future gains in WPC lands, you can also sponsor WPC a bit if they can get to Engineering, so at least they have something meaningful to whip to put against Ot4e's cavalries. This way, you will have what to conquer at t200. If left unchecked, WPC will be all conquered by CP long before t200.

Whether you decide to do something on the matter or not,, we would greatly appreciate if you keep the source of this information to yourself.

I will use the opportunity to inform you that our Great Scientist as already on the border and we are ready for the exchange of Great Persons. Can you please tell us when your Great Spy will reach our borders so we can plan better?

Thanks in advance. Looking to hear from you soon.

Friendly,
Team CFC

 

[2metraninja]

Sending it.

 

[bistrita]

good,good