From what point was Germany doomed during WWII?

[LightSpectra]

Now let's find a reason the Franco-Prussian War was inevitable. I'm thinking Congress of Vienna, but I'm too lazy to think this through.

Prussian ultramilitarism is the usually cited reason (even though Prussia didn't cause the war, was hardly more militaristic as any other nation of the era, and being militarized doesn't cause wars).

 

[Dachs]

Prussian ultramilitarism is the usually cited reason (even though Prussia didn't cause the war, was hardly more militaristic as any other nation of the era, and being militarized doesn't cause wars).

pssst

the whole thing is an extended joke

 

[LightSpectra]

pssst

the whole thing is an extended joke

What, Sonderweg?

[rimshot]

 

[vonbach]

The war was unwinnable from 1933, which is when Germany began making economic decisions that facilitated long-term instability.

Long term economic instability for whom? WW2 is very simply explained. Germany was rebuilt
using the same method that the 13 colonies gained their prosperity. Interest free money.
Germanys financial system was essentially a complex system of barter cutting the bankers out
of the loop. So a war was started and Germany destroyed. Bluntly put 60 +million people died
because the bankers wouldn't be denied their cut. And before you say Germany started the war
no they didn't. Germany was maneuvered into it.

 

[LightSpectra]

Aside from everything else that's wrong: Germany was maneuvered into invading Poland? By who, the Jews?

 

[Dachs]

no, the bankers

which is clearly the same thing!!!!111

 

[vonbach]

Germany was maneuvered into invading Poland?

Poland was massacring ethnic Germans. Germany was offering a very fair deal to Poland but
Poland wouldn't listen. The reason is Churchill gave the Poles a guarantee of assistance.
Without British meddling WW2 would probably never taken place at all.

 

[LightSpectra]

Ah, you know, I completely missed the most obvious possible joke there.

"Will you stop talking about the war?"

"Me? You started it."

"We did not start it."

"Yes, you did. You invaded Poland!"

 

[LightSpectra]

Poland was massacring ethnic Germans. Germany was offering a very fair deal to Poland but
Poland wouldn't listen. The reason is Churchill gave the Poles a guarantee of assistance.
Without British meddling WW2 would probably never taken place at all.

Adolf Hitler in his speech on 22 August 1939, referring to the Munich Agreement:

"The enemy did not expect my great determination. Our enemies are little worms, I saw them at Munich. [...] Now Poland is in the position I wanted. [...] I am only afraid that some bastard will present me with a mediation plan at the last moment."

(Original German: "Die Gegner haben nicht mit meiner großen Entschlußkraft gerechnet. Unsere Gegner sind kleine Würmchen. Ich sah sie in München... Nun ist Polen in der Lage, in der ich es haben wollte... Ich habe nur Angst, daß mir noch im letzten Moment irgend ein Schweinehund einen Vermittlungsplan vorlegt.")

 

[vonbach]

So the ethnic Germans in Poland just dropped dead on their own?

 

[LightSpectra]

So the ethnic Germans in Poland just dropped dead on their own?

I didn't say anything about that, but your response is quite telling. I guess, then, that's exactly the position Hitler wanted them in? Huh. So in addition to all of the other lies he told, he was also pleased that Poland was killing ethnic Germans?

 

[vonbach]

I didn't say anything about that, but your response is quite telling.

Yours are too.

So in addition to all of the other lies he told, he was also pleased that Poland was killing ethnic Germans?

No he was trying to avoid a war the Poles were trying to ethnically cleanse the Germans there.
The British turned a regional war (one that never would have started if not for them) into a world war.

 

[LightSpectra]

No he was trying to avoid a war the Poles were trying to ethnically cleanse the Germans there. The British turned a regional war (one that never would have started if not for them) into a world war.

Your non-response is cute. See, if Poland was "ethnically cleansing Germans," then you have to explain to me why Hitler said that he found Poland "in the position [he] wanted"; and that if Hitler was trying to avoid war, why he was afraid that somebody would "present [him] with a mediation plan at the last moment."

Also you say that the invasion of Poland would not have happened if it weren't for Britain. That's also quite telling. So if invading Poland wouldn't have caused a war with Britain and France, Hitler would not have done it? Sounds like he wanted a war to me.

My favorite thing about arguing with neo-Nazis is how easy it is. Soviet apologists can just cite something that's obviously Soviet propaganda and then pretend that their argument has any intellectual rigidity; Hegelians are generally just impervious to reason; and neo-Confederates can at least project a thin layer of BS before they're suffocated by facts. Neo-Nazis however, have nothing to cling to, because the Nazis made no pretense that anything they were doing was morally right. They were pretty up and open about their warmongering and genocidal policies.

 

[Lord Baal]

Economic collapse is one thing, actual defeat, regime change, etc is quite another. North Korea's economy collapsed decades ago, but they are still there and annoying us all. I too doubt that Britain was capable of (as in with a high probability, it certainly wasn't impossible, particularly with Tube Alloys) defeating Germany alone, but I take the prediction of economic collapse quite seriously.

On the other hand, flipping the perspective around to that of the Germans, they really were in a rather no-win scenario. Becoming an oversized North Korea surely doesn't count as victory, and neither does becoming a Soviet vassal to aquire the resources needed to avoid becoming North Korea.

Bear in mind, though, that Germany wasn't even in the position that North Korea is in now: ruling over only a small, fairly docile population. Germany was ruling a sizable empire with a vast, mostly belligerent population. If the economy collapsed - which was inevitable, unlike the other stuff I plan on joking about further along in this post - then German would attempt to despoil their conquered territories even more in a desperate attempt to stay afloat. Conquered territories such as France and Norway were strong enough to fight back when that happened, and the cost of pacifying them would be far more than the cost of withdrawing. Ditto for client-states and allies that the Germans might lean on for help, such as Vichy, Italy and Hungary. Germany would collapse, and violently so, when their economy went under. What happens then is open to anyone's guess, but I don't see the Soviets standing back and not intervening when half of Europe suddenly opened up for the taking.

easy; German Nationalism^TM

Which was made inevitable by the Napoleonic Wars, and the creation of the Confederation of the Rhine.

Now, how do we make those inevitable?

Yours are too.

No he was trying to avoid a war the Poles were trying to ethnically cleanse the Germans there.
The British turned a regional war (one that never would have started if not for them) into a world war.

I'm Jewish. Care to tell me how I was involved in this? I'm sure I was, somehow, but I'm so busy dominating world finance and slowly taking power by corrupting society's morals that it's hard to keep track of all the ways I've kept the ubermensch down over the years.

Oh, and on top of everything else wrong with your post, Hitler was planning an offensive war a year before the invasion of Poland. He wanted to start a war over Sudeten, but Goering went behind his back to negotiate the Munich Pact. Hitler responded to this diplomatic coup by his appointed heir by pouting and searching around for another pretext. Oh, and he still invaded Poland, even after Britain guaranteed its security. Seems like he wanted a war with Britain to me. Then there was that whole unprovoked attack on Denmark, Norway and the Low Countries thing.

My favorite thing about arguing with neo-Nazis is how easy it is. Soviet apologists can just cite something that's obviously Soviet propaganda and then pretend that their argument has any intellectual rigidity; Hegelians are generally just impervious to reason; and neo-Confederates can at least project a thin layer of BS before they're suffocated by facts. Neo-Nazis however, have nothing to cling to, because the Nazis made no pretense that anything they were doing was morally right. They were pretty up and open about their warmongering and genocidal policies.

Hey, at least they were honest. Counts for something, right?

 

[Dachs]

Which was made inevitable by the Napoleonic Wars, and the creation of the Confederation of the Rhine.

Now, how do we make those inevitable?

naw, nationalism is qua nationalism an inevitable and natural ideological development

 

[Yeekim]

Poland was massacring ethnic Germans.

So the ethnic Germans in Poland just dropped dead on their own?

Care to give any sources about when and how exactly Poles were massacring ethnic Germans? Because that's a claim I've honestly not heard before.

 

[EnglishCrusader]

Care to give any sources about when and how exactly Poles were massacring ethnic Germans? Because that's a claim I've honestly not heard before.

This.

 

[Dragonlord]

Care to give any sources about when and how exactly Poles were massacring ethnic Germans? Because that's a claim I've honestly not heard before.

Really? You surprise me - haven't you ever heard or read any of Hitler's speeches just prior to the attack on Poland?
In other words, that was a favorite propaganda claim of the Nazis to justify their attack on Poland. They made exactly the same claims about Czechoslovakia a year earlier, BTW...

I facepalm to find anyone seriously claiming it as truth today, though. Seems a Neonazi has found his way onto this site...

Oh, and the claims that Germany was pressured into attacking Poland and that someone else was responsible (anyone! The evil English, the provoking and unreasonable Poles, international Jewry... anyone but Germany, obviously!) are also typical Neonazi fare.

Classify as: NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY and be done with it...

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Which was made inevitable by the Napoleonic Wars, and the creation of the Confederation of the Rhine.

Now, how do we make those inevitable?

By wearing big, powdery Whigs.

 

[red_elk]

On what ground do you say that it "cannot be taken seriously"?

Economic collapse is one thing, actual defeat, regime change, etc is quite another. North Korea's economy collapsed decades ago, but they are still there and annoying us all. I too doubt that Britain was capable of (as in with a high probability, it certainly wasn't impossible, particularly with Tube Alloys) defeating Germany alone, but I take the prediction of economic collapse quite seriously.

On the other hand, flipping the perspective around to that of the Germans, they really were in a rather no-win scenario. Becoming an oversized North Korea surely doesn't count as victory, and neither does becoming a Soviet vassal to aquire the resources needed to avoid becoming North Korea.

I'm not saying that economic collapse of Germany was impossible.
What I'm saying is that predictions in economic field are proven to be very unreliable. Predictions of political and historical events basing on economical ground are even more unreliable - and if we are talking about 10-years timespan, they are probably as accurate as works of Nostradamus.

One example - credit rating of the USSR was high until late 1980-s.

Did you hear many correct predictions of crisis of 2008 a few years before it happened? Its length, political and economical consequences for different countries? My impression is that if you read 100 books of different economists, you are likely to get 100 different opinions on that matter.

Saying that Germany was already bound to lose war in 1933 (war, which was not even inevitable at that time), because of wrong economic decisions is IMO nonsense claim.