Future of Belgium
- Thread starter madviking
- Start date
aronnax
Let your spirit be free
While Belgium Seperatist parties have gain a firm majority of the Parliament, the people of Belgium did not vote them in because of that reason.
From TIME Magazine - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2005778,00.html
I say there is no need to panic folks, there will be no small Flemish-Walloon States. Catalan has a higher chance of leaving Spain than the two will break apart.
From TIME Magazine - http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2005778,00.html
I say there is no need to panic folks, there will be no small Flemish-Walloon States. Catalan has a higher chance of leaving Spain than the two will break apart.
Jan H
Prince
Not entirely correct: the two flemish independentist parties (NVA and Vlaams Belang) together have 39 out of the 88 flemish seats and out of the 150 seats in total. Not exactly a majority... It's true that all other flemish parties are also in favour (one party a bit more than the other) of devolution and more power to the regions, but they are not separatists.
About the poll numbers: there is indeed probably no majority of Flemish people in favour of independence, but like with all polls, the number greatly depends on the formulation and timing of the question. I have also seen polls with almost 50% of the Flemish supporting it...
For the rest, the article does a fairly good job of summarizing the current situation (although they could have left out the part with Mark Eyskens
Nobody listens to him any more...)I'm pretty sure nobody is about to panic
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Europe doesn't need more countries, so in case Belgium splits it should be divided between the Netherlands and France (and possibly also Germany, although that might be a little tricky). Renegotiating all EU treaties in order to admit two brand new countries would be a nightmare.
Brussels would become EU territory jointly administered by the EU and the local council.
Or a quick bankruptcy...
Brussels would become EU territory jointly administered by the EU and the local council.
They'd gain annexation by France.
Or a quick bankruptcy...
Winner
Diverse in Unity
... and in that case the successor states would essentially be kicked out of the EU, so I think it's in everybody's interest to come to a negotiated solution.
So Belgium might theoretically be split up and Brussels handed to the EU as a city-state? Charming. I'm sure the Belgian royal family would be most impressed by the cavalier destruction of their country and their capital city.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Destruction is a pretty strong word to describe a peaceful dissolution, don't you think?
It's always the vocal minority that has the biggest mouths. Has anyone held a referendum on this subject? Has anyone bothered to consult the millions of Belgian people? Since King Albert seems to have a firmer control over his government (or lack thereof) than our Queen does, has anyone asked his opinion? Ask India/Pakistan/Bangladesh what happened when the UK "peacefully dissolved" India.
Witproduct
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 25
Dutch-speaking you mean. It might sound like a silly detail, but the reason some people call Dutch Flemish here is an old divida-et-impera trick, just like in France minority languages were/are named after their dialects.
Jan H
Prince
sorry, I missed it once. I always try to use the term "Dutch-speaking" when speaking to foreigners. I know there is no such thing as a "Flemish" language, although the term is often used to collectively refer to the four Dutch dialects spoken in Belgium: West-Flemish, East-Flemish, Brabantian and Limburgish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish
The funny things is that I have heard many Dutch people (from the Netherlands) refer to the Flemish-Dutch dialects as "Belgian" (e.g. "How do you say that in Belgian?")
Witproduct
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 25
sorry, I missed it once. I always try to use the term "Dutch-speaking" when speaking to foreigners. I know there is no such thing as a "Flemish" language, although the term is often used to collectively refer to the four Dutch dialects spoken in Belgium: West-Flemish, East-Flemish, Brabantian and Limburgish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemish
Indeed, popularly people tend to name our variant (a Brabantian lect, forged by our television and more or less spoken in every province when not speaking regional language) Flemish and the one in the Netherlands (a Hollandic lect) Hollandic.
Further there are also variants like West-Flemish, East-Flemish, Antwerpian, Pajotish, Limburgish and so on.
What is a big no however, is to speak about Flemish as if it were a different language so it's best to not use the term when comparing it with French or with any other non-Dutch variant. This can be annoying seeing it used to be a taboo calling our language Dutch in the relatively distant past, this is also where 'Flemish' as pars-pro-toto comes from (no it actually got forged during the Spanish Netherlands era by the elite, and later during Austrian era it became popularly called such by the people I think; not sure about that though, because a provincial Brabantian identity also existed back then). Also the fact that we live in a 'Flemish Community' versus the 'French Community' (not French-speaking) is a result of propaganda. It's isolationism and meant to divide us (because Flemish is weaker than Dutch, just like Hollandic is weaker than Dutch for that matter).
The funny things is that I have heard many Dutch people (from the Netherlands) refer to the Flemish-Dutch dialects as "Belgian" (e.g. "How do you say that in Belgian?")
Especially in the past you'd hear that indeed, but some still do call it like it. Ignorance. By the way, the fact that some Francophones call our language 'Flemish' doesn't mean they mean it bad, despite it been used originally to divide. Also here it's often ignorance. Still, the Walloons I have spoken to sometimes even explicitly call our language 'le flamand (et non néerlandais!!)'. Seriously, some still do this, today. Some Flemish (especially older low-schooled) also speak about 'Vlomsj'...
Without trying to sound like some conspiracy freak, it undoubtedly propaganda of a past Belgium that still lingers on to this day.
By the way: today still many serious (anglo- and francophone) media outlets use 'Flemish' or 'flamand' to this day. Also, lastly I noticed you can choose to mark your video submission and responses by language on Dailymotion (which is a French video-hosting website) and it included Flemish and Dutch. Of course nearly every Fleming highlights Dutch, because that's our language and also how we call our language.
ParkCungHee
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2006
- Messages
- 12,921
And why not ask the Czechs and Slovaks how that worked out for them?
Witproduct
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2009
- Messages
- 25
Funny thing is that Czech and Slovak are mutually intelligible, but only the Slovaks seem to be aware of it. It always strikes me how they pull it off to millions of people.
Sofista
Deity
Give Südtirol back!
Pip pip!
"In Alto adige we have an exemplary cohabitance, our peoples get along. We have full employment, the largest GDP in Italy, a high standard of living, a good health system, our autonomy... In a recent poll 87% of the people declared themselves satisfied" - Luis Durnwalder
That Belgium became independent, however, is the British Empire's fault. They saw in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands a potential concurrent which they had to weaken, thus they supported the Belgian Revolution. Perfidious Albion.
But they also prevented us of becoming French, on the other hand, which makes a lot good again. Plans were even proposed by the French to divide Belgium, but the British authorities refused on the offer and preferred an entirely independent Belgium.
Still, if there wasn't a Polish uprising in 1830, the Russians would have helped the Dutch, and then the British would have sided with the Dutch just to prevent France from grabbing the Southern Netherlands (Belgium). Those French didn't just want Wallonia, but also Flanders because the harbour of Antwerp was too interesting for them. You know how the 19th century was like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talleyrand_partition_plan_for_Belgium
Antwerp (my town) was the last town to fall to Belgian revolutionaries, with the aid of French troops. In history books in our schools sometimes they speak about 'French troops who free-ed Antwerp from Dutch yoke'
.
But they also prevented us of becoming French, on the other hand, which makes a lot good again. Plans were even proposed by the French to divide Belgium, but the British authorities refused on the offer and preferred an entirely independent Belgium.
Still, if there wasn't a Polish uprising in 1830, the Russians would have helped the Dutch, and then the British would have sided with the Dutch just to prevent France from grabbing the Southern Netherlands (Belgium). Those French didn't just want Wallonia, but also Flanders because the harbour of Antwerp was too interesting for them. You know how the 19th century was like.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talleyrand_partition_plan_for_Belgium
Antwerp (my town) was the last town to fall to Belgian revolutionaries, with the aid of French troops. In history books in our schools sometimes they speak about 'French troops who free-ed Antwerp from Dutch yoke'
.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Then go ahead and ask, I love talking about this subject
Funny thing is that Czech and Slovak are mutually intelligible, but only the Slovaks seem to be aware of it. It always strikes me how they pull it off to millions of people.
Huh? I am afraid I don't understand. Czech and Slovak are 99% mutually intelligible. The differences in grammar don't usually affect understanding at all and so problems only arise with some words which are different. (And also with false friends - my favourite one: pivnice=beer hall in Czech, but pivnica=cellar in Slovak. I wonder what the Slovaks were doing in their cellars...)
In recent years the media started spreading alarmist stories that Czech children don't understand Slovak anymore, unlike vice versa. In my experience that's utter rubbish. Yes, they may get slightly confused by some words and it may take a little time to get used to the way Slovaks speak, but after a few days of adjusting, any Czech will understand standard Slovak perfectly. There may be problems with some less usual varieties of Slovak spoken in the East of the country, but standard Slovak is perfectly understandable.
---
Czechoslovakia didn't split because of ethnic tensions between the nations. It split because of conflicting ideologies and personal antipathies of their elected leaders, as well as because of the dysfunctional federal political system inherited from the communist era and the strong pressures of post-communist transformation.
Belgium is very different. The languages are not mutually intelligible, Belgium didn't inherit a dysfunctional political system (it has created it on purpose
), it is a monarchy, there is a longer tradition of statehood, etc.Danielion said:
Right, it didn't have anything to do with the potential for France to step in and defeat the Netherlands and annex the joint. It was just a calculated move on the part of the UK to crush the Netherlands. Totally, believable.
It was all about killing two birds with one stone. You portray it as if it were black-and-white (it's either this or that). Also, I did mention in my post that France wasn't allowed to annex the Southern Netherlands, because it would make them too powerful (and the French were still very angry at losing the harbour of Antwerp).
For boycotting the Netherlands, it was mainly for economical reasons. They were a concurrent in the cotton industry. Also, Belgium was the second country in the world to hit the industrial era (the British Empire the first), you can see that the loss of Belgium was a great blow for the Netherlands.
Also, this industrialization started in what's today Wallonia, so the French neither were allowed to get that part.Anyway, the British Empire would support the Dutch if the Russians came into play anyway. The French were indeed the force that were feared the most on the continent.
Similar threads
