Game Preference Poll

[Birdjaguar]

I still think there should be a seperate thread for each culture, so the stories and the diplo are homogenous in every thread. It almost FORCES IC if not everyone has everything forced down their throat. Its fine if you lurk the other thread Das and Alex and Darkening, but if we are able to keep each thread seperate, it creates a climate of seperation that is wanted at these early times.

This will be decided later.

Also, whe can we get started. Cause I have my culture and i want to start story-making!

Well there is no map and the rules are still in their infancy. And I am not, ATM, quite ready to start modding again at the intensity that will be required.

What about the issue of domestication and agricutlure though. It seems that the plants and animals of this world would be slightly different. Not wholly different, just slightly.

I fear getting away from plants and animals that are "not of this earth". That would open the door to fantasy which I do not want to do. Now that would not rule out unusual plants tied to a particular culture, but it does pretty much limit players to known animals. Mounted troops will be on horses. Part of the map development will be to assign important plants and animals to the various land masses.

Actually, it is the "hard culture" (or possibly "soft culture" - both names fit in a way, so it's a poor classification) camp, which doesn't seem to have previously existed. So no, it's not a compromise at all; furthermore, it feels way too contrived. Why not just settle some basic matters for the cradles (main migration patterns and origins) and then start it like a more or less normal fresh start, with people joining in whatever cradle seems to work best for their ideas? Far easier that way, IMHO.

Ofcourse, it all depends on what Birdjaguar ultimately decides to do with the cradle quantity.

EDIT: Before we decide on anything else though, it would really be useful if Birdjaguar were to say his last word on the topic of cradles. I think three is a wholly reasonable number, and a one we could work with quite fine.

Last word? Not a chance, but here is where I think things are going. The number of cradles is tied to three things: number of players; length of each turn; final layout of the landmasses. If I use a long turn (75 to 100 years) then progress will be quicker and there will be better chances that nations will be able to connect to other cradles during the game. Short turns (20-50 years) makes it less likely for nations to explore vast areas of the map and find the other cradles unless those cradles are all very close. I am leaning towards longer turns and more cradles that are far enough apart that it might take 500 to 1000 years for some contacts to be made. All things being equal, I would like 3 cradles.

Here is what I’m thinking on cultures at the moment. Players would create a culture and a brief history that tells the story of where (kind of place, climate, and terrain) they are currently living as the game starts and where they came from and how they got there. Maybe they always lived there; maybe they migrated in long ago, or just recently. Other cultural items or distinctions would also be included.

Then I would try to place them in an appropriate place on the map. At that point, players could agree or not on common themes for their cradle. If a cradle has trouble in coming to any sort of consensus, I would start that cradle off with more rancorous NPCs and give it a more “troubled” setting than a cradle that came to some sort of agreement either about common threads or acceptance of differences. Pre-game player behavior would influence the game from the beginning. I might create NPC nations that will reflect the cooperation or lack of it among players.

Thoughts?

 

[~Darkening~]

Woah. All of a sudden I sense hostility . What I was referring to, as you appearntly missed the whole issue, was that I am patient. Look in every single NES and all you see me say is that I'm willing to wait. And, after I've made a few jokes making fun of myself, and stated my position as against an increased level of work for the mods, I am nothing but patient.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Er. Do you know how difficult it is to make maps that quickly? Learn patience, Padawan.

Seconded completely.

....You're joking . No? Okay then. *Purenes**Lucknes**DNESER**LINES*-shall I go onwards? Don't even make me drop the T-bomb. I was mostly joking, through I would be annoyed if this fails to start .

Failure for this to start is unlikely barring some kind of physical problem on my part. The question is when. I stopped BirdNES because I needed a break. I am not rushing the rules nor will I rush the map. I hope it will be a game worth waiting for. All of these discussions will make the game better and help me write the rules. There are excellent NESes going on right now that should be played. For those so inclinded, this time can be used to think about a culture and plan for the beginning when it comes.

EDIT: No hostility at all. I did not see your post until after I posted above. Anticipation can be a good thing.

 

[alex994]

A Divine Monarchy in Birdnes, a fanatical Republic in AFNES, a Bureaucratic Monarchy in Epoch. What to do... Such difficult choices to make!

 

[Lord_Iggy]

What's wrong with PureNES? And, for that matter, LINES? Mods have RL difficulties; if that is too much for you, open up an NES and see how well you do.

He did run a NES, if you can recall. 3 Updates. I'm sure you remember it NK, as you were in it.

 

[das]

As are single culture Cradles

That's technically what I meant under "theme cradles".

what I'm arguing against is Mass-alliances based on the common thought of culture (more realistically religion).

Long-term, well-organised alliances of all kinds are to be strongly condemned at this early stage; however, cultural similarities would usually make diplomacy easier, no?

I think it would be helpful if the main creators of a culture (or group) would collect their info, arrange everything properly, and then send it for Bird. Such a "packet" would give him a resource to look back against, and would contain all the major points of the culture.

That works just as well.

I think the main problem is the recording of Pre-history. I think we've all agreed that cultures should be related at least at some level, and that the main arguing point is the divergence of the branches. I'm advocating that more unique cultures could diverge from the main stock earlier, giving them more time to arrange their own culture. More numerous cultures would diverge later, and would form the majority of the continuing lines.

Agreed.

I'd advocate the Cradle Group idea, where those wishing to play in one cradle declare (as a majority) what phsyical bearings the natives have. Such as a group declaring one cradle to be Asian, one to be Indo-European, or one declaring their Cradle African. Later on, as the map is expanded, the unshown cultures could exist in foreign locations.

Hence my advocating of very loose initial historical analogies when feasible.

That said, I restate that it seems to be impossible to decide without a definite resolution to the cradle question, which brings us here:

The number of cradles is tied to three things: number of players; length of each turn; final layout of the landmasses. If I use a long turn (75 to 100 years) then progress will be quicker and there will be better chances that nations will be able to connect to other cradles during the game. Short turns (20-50 years) makes it less likely for nations to explore vast areas of the map and find the other cradles unless those cradles are all very close. I am leaning towards longer turns and more cradles that are far enough apart that it might take 500 to 1000 years for some contacts to be made. All things being equal, I would like 3 cradles.

Three is good. God loves the Trinity. All good things come in threes. Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres. Et cetera.

If the number of players is that important, mightn't it be reasonable to make a preliminary list of those still interested?

Here is what I’m thinking on cultures at the moment. Players would create a culture and a brief history that tells the story of where (kind of place, climate, and terrain) they are currently living as the game starts and where they came from and how they got there. Maybe they always lived there; maybe they migrated in long ago, or just recently. Other cultural items or distinctions would also be included.

Then I would try to place them in an appropriate place on the map. At that point, players could agree or not on common themes for their cradle.

I suppose that works as well.

Ceterum censeo we should start in Bronze Age.

If a cradle has trouble in coming to any sort of consensus, I would start that cradle off with more rancorous NPCs and give it a more “troubled” setting than a cradle that came to some sort of agreement either about common threads or acceptance of differences. Pre-game player behavior would influence the game from the beginning. I might create NPC nations that will reflect the cooperation or lack of it among players.

I think that would be redundant. Certainly it is possible for some cradles to end up more heterogenic and multi-cultural; that alone will have various natural consequences (most notably, greater difficulty of assimilation and relation in general; everything else will stem from that). Furthermore, who said homogenic cradles should be more peaceful? Does Ancient Mesopotamia seem peaceful to you? If anything, the comparative ease of conquest (or, at least, ease of integration) should encourage warfare in homogenic environments, while heterogenic environment tends to encourage isolationism (but also greater brutality when war does break out).

One more matter that remains significant is the initial cradle size. IMHO they should be big enough to fit more people in.

Also, I do hope that you will give justice to the various barbaric peoples that inevitably arise on a civilisation's periphery. Here's to massive barbarian invasions and never-ending raids.

A Divine Monarchy in Birdnes, a fanatical Republic in AFNES, a Bureaucratic Monarchy in Epoch. What to do... Such difficult choices to make!

How about an aristocratic republic, or say a theocracy? There are a lot of fringe eastern philosophies that could've been developed into a base for a proper Chinese theocracy.

He did run a NES, if you can recall. 3 Updates. I'm sure you remember it NK, as you were in it.

I'm sure he was being sarcastic.

 

[Symphony D.]

I'm sure he was being sarcastic.

Or accusing, given it, like so many others, was smothered with nary a word of regret.

 

[~Darkening~]

He did run a NES, if you can recall. 3 Updates. I'm sure you remember it NK, as you were in it.

That's why I hinted at the 'insulting myself' part, and the various references to the amount of work mods do. I have nothing but respect for the (suicidal) amount of work mods choose to do . And, btw, you forgot the first failure with only half an update .

Or accusing, given it, like so many others, was smothered with nary a word of regret.

Really? I guess all those posts where I made fun of myself didn't count then? I did talk extinsively to several people in private, but I thought that was more of my business than a community one. Forgive me for not making everything I do a matter of public notice. From now on I'll shout to the heavens: "I AM A MISERABLE EXCUSE FOR A HUMAN BEING!!!"[/emo]

Failure for this to start is unlikely barring some kind of physical problem on my part. The question is when. I stopped BirdNES because I needed a break. I am not rushing the rules nor will I rush the map. I hope it will be a game worth waiting for. All of these discussions will make the game better and help me write the rules. There are excellent NESes going on right now that should be played. For those so inclinded, this time can be used to think about a culture and plan for the beginning when it comes.

Somehow, I didn't see all of this comng when I decided to make the little joke . Anywho, for the final record: I did not intend to imply that this wouldn't start, but rather, that I was somewhat looking forward to it. In general, I've been losing interest in fresh starts, and to actually like one was quite nice for me . As ofr the second part; I never intended to insult anyone. NK told me to be patient, and I pointed out several NESes where I am nothing but patient- it was somewhat of a continuation of a joke. As I've never had the particular urge to join NAO (except for Azale's case), I'm not sure why that wording was taken to be such hostile; espicially as I routinely make fun of myself for being such a failure.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

A bronze age start would be good. Death to NAO!

 

[das]

There is a lesson in this: sometimes, constant self-denigration just isn't enough to make yourself completely inoffensive. Or perhaps you should try harder!

Anyways, "looking forward to it" sentiments seconded. Also:

And I am not, ATM, quite ready to start modding again at the intensity that will be required.

So, when will you be ready, approximately?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Three is good. God loves the Trinity. All good things come in threes. Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres. Et cetera.

If the number of players is that important, mightn't it be reasonable to make a preliminary list of those still interested?

Ceterum censeo we should start in Bronze Age.

One more matter that remains significant is the initial cradle size. IMHO they should be big enough to fit more people in.

Also, I do hope that you will give justice to the various barbaric peoples that inevitably arise on a civilisation's periphery. Here's to massive barbarian invasions and never-ending raids.

A bronze age start would be good. Death to NAO!

Anyways, "looking forward to it" sentiments seconded. Also: So, when will you be ready, approximately?

I like the Bronze Age and it would be a nice starting point. Once I have a first draft of the rules I will probably post a preview thread to solicite players. I expect that the rules will attract some and drive others away. Once the map is complete, many of the cradle issues will have clearer answers. As has been said elsewhere: "A good map takes time."

ATM I am enjoying not being anchored by modding and am taking things leisurely. I think that we are looking at a month or more at the minimum before we get seriously close. Besides since I am playing in a game now, I don't want to cut that short.

 

[LittleBoots]

Here is what I’m thinking on cultures at the moment. Players would create a culture and a brief history that tells the story of where (kind of place, climate, and terrain) they are currently living as the game starts and where they came from and how they got there. Maybe they always lived there; maybe they migrated in long ago, or just recently. Other cultural items or distinctions would also be included.

Then I would try to place them in an appropriate place on the map. At that point, players could agree or not on common themes for their cradle. If a cradle has trouble in coming to any sort of consensus, I would start that cradle off with more rancorous NPCs and give it a more “troubled” setting than a cradle that came to some sort of agreement either about common threads or acceptance of differences. Pre-game player behavior would influence the game from the beginning. I might create NPC nations that will reflect the cooperation or lack of it among players.

I think its a good idea.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Same here.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Forge of Empires Draft Stat List

Available Spending/Treasury: 6/5
Population/Area/Diversity: 4/5/1
Domestic Economy/Trade/National Upkeep: 8/10/1
Confidence %/Corruption %/Culture: 1.31/0.15/0
EC/TC/RC: 2/1/0
Religion/Fanaticism Level: 0/0
National Stability: 17//
Maximum Army/Levies/Mounted/UU: 10000/20000/2000/2000
Current Army/Levies/Mounted/UU: 5000/5000/1000/1000
Maximum Warships/Trading fleet: //
Navy: Warships/Trading fleet: 12/2
Indexed Army Value: 15
Borders: Open

This is my current list of stats. As you can see I've reversed myself from BirdNES 1. I actually have all the detail, but am not showing it. Players would just tell me what they want to spend their EP on and I will slot it correctly for the correct impact. Some spending like infrastructure may take several turns to show effect. The rules will provide more details about what affects what and how much some basic things cost.

Available Spending/Treasury: EP collected from all sources and EP in bank (subject to pillage). A very low treasury though will reduce stability.

Population/Area/Diversity: Diversity is the mix of cultures in your nation. As diversity goes up, it impacts other things.

Domestic Economy/Trade/National Upkeep: DE & Trade are the levels of those economies; Nat Upkeep is the ongoing cost of all your improvements that improve your economy.

Confidence %/Corruption %/Culture: Confidence is a good thing, corruption reduces spending and culture impresses your neighbors.

EC/TC/RC: These will be calculated based on Dom Econ, Trade and Religious emphasis.

Religion/Fanaticism Level: Religion represent the importance of religion in your culture and fanaticism the extent you take it to extremes.

National Stability: When this number gets too low your nation is apt to break up into smaller squabbling states. Unstable nations will be prime candidates for rebellions by new players.

Maximum Army/Levies/UU: Max levels
Current Army/Levies/UU: Current levels
Maximum Warships/Trading fleets:
Navy: Warships/Trading fleets: Trading fleets will increase trade and be subject to attacks by pirates (both NPC and Player owned). Trade fleets will probably be assigned to particular trade routes.

Indexed Army Value: This number allows players to compare their army to that of other nations. Higher is better. It takes army size, unit types, quality, leadership and UUs into account.

Borders: Open A player could close their borders and stop all trade if they want. It is all or nothing. No in between.

Now I would like to know whether this approach is more (or less) to your liking as a player. You will has control over how your spending affects things, but greater freedom to spend your money creatively and have it afffect the game.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

I like the ruleset. I've never played by it before, but I don't see any major reasons to dislike it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I like the ruleset. I've never played by it before, but I don't see any major reasons to dislike it.

The rules will be be more complicated, but I've tried to keep the stats simple. It appears much more like a tyupical NES; for those used to BirdNES 1, though, it is very different. These were the stats for that game:

Spoiler :

Kingdom of Greater Genoa/Swissempire
Ruler: King Antonio I
Religion: Catholic
Population: 4
Available Spending: 8/5 (Economy/Bank)
Economy/Culture/National Confidence: 8/2/7
Leadership (max 4/4/x): 3/3/0 (Civilian/Military/Colonial)
Education (max 5): 1 0/4
Infrastructure (max 5): 2 0/4
Agriculture (max 5): 1 0/4
Religion: 0/1 (Fanaticism/Culture)
Domestic Economy 4.2
Important Cities: TC/EC/RC: 2/2/0
Important Cities (names): Genoa, Nova Roma/--/
Trade: 3.4
Voyages of Discovery: (MED, NWE, MC, ESA, WCA, ECA, IOS, IP, ENA, WSA, WNA, CE)
Army Confidence/Max Divs: 0/ 10
Army (Divs)/Navy (Sqds): 10/45
Army/Navy Quality: Professional/Professional
Standing Army/Fleet Upkeep: 2
Divisions Overseas: 0 (not in colonies)
Overseas Army Cost: 0
Total Army Upkeep: 2 (Subtracted from Economy)
Projects: 0 of 0 (Description)
Economic Freedom: 3
Government Control: 2
Net Economic Freedom: 1
Wealth Transferred: 2
Total # Colonies: 2 (Colonists/Wealth/Resources)
Nova Roma 1/0/6
Nino (Nouvo Pascoli) 2/2/5

The red ones are gone from view, even though some of them will probably come back as the rules unfold.

 

[Swissempire]

They look good for the Bronze Age, but i do hope more will come back as we progress. I'd become quite fond of the BirdNes rules

 

[Birdjaguar]

They look good for the Bronze Age, but i do hope more will come back as we progress. I'd become quite fond of the BirdNes rules

What rules in particular?

EDIT:
Forge of Empires
Rules Table of Contents (so far)

Introduction
Game Concepts
Turns
Map
Stats & Hidden Stats
Nations
Family Trees
Culture
Religion
Domestic Economy
Trade
Warfare
Exploration
Colonies
Projects
Orders
How to spend
Random Events

 

[Swissempire]

Economic Freedom/Government Control. But those are more for the future. Also a concrete Agriculture/Education/Infrastructure stat, but those aren't needed right now any ways.

Oh and VODs.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Economic Freedom/Government Control. But those are more for the future. Also a concrete Agriculture/Education/Infrastructure stat, but those aren't needed right now any ways.

Oh and VODs.

VoD are certainly in, but will also include overland discovery. I have not figured out how to name or identify them yet. Such naming may develop as the game does.

I have concrete stats for: Infrastructure, roads, agriculture, bureaucracy, education and manufacturing. ATM they are not "shown". Players will spend on them just like BirdNES, but with less clearly visible results. If players prefer more stats listed, it can certainly be arranged. Maybe as you suggest, they should unfold over time as they world becomes more complex.

Economic Freedom and Government control are gone, but those concepts will be handled by other mechanisms.