To be honest, the fact that I caracterize this position as center right is a victory for the left in the second half of the 20th century, but it's a mix of the theoretical position the right wing had in France around 2000 and what some of the center right in France claims to believe in currently.
General Politics Three: But what is left/right?
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Akka
Moody old mage.
Isn't it basically describing the immigration law that you categorized as far-right ?
In fact your description is even quite harsher, as even paperless immigrants in needed jobs are able to get a work permit under it, expulsions aren't as easily given and admissions are more generous.
Have you even read the law ? Very narrow definition of needed jobs, very complicated process to access work permit, possibility to deport people who arrived here as a kid years ago, a period of 3 years before they get any fiscal help by the state, putting their fingerprints in a database without their consent, the list is long. The unsaid thing in my previous post is that the center right view is somewhat tolerant of those who did come illegally before (or at least not counterproductive when it comes to dealing with them).
Edit : also, the fact that you theoretically want to send back migrants to their country doesn't mean that it's actually possible to do it. It usually isn't without being extremely inhumane.
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Akka
Moody old mage.
Yes, and it kinda fit with "try to accept migrants who can work in jobs you need, and accept people who seek asylum and can prove that they're fleeing because of human rights issues. The other ones are kindly taken back to their country.".
If they are refugees, they are protected from being expelled (unless they commited a crime, in which case they have nothing to complain about).
If not, then there is nothing inhumane.
I have no sympathy for people who deliberately come illegally into a place they are not welcome, and no sympathy with the argument that said tresspassers shouldn't be expelled because it would be mean to them - and most people don't either.
That is, I think, the core issue. You don't believe that human dignity is a right. That is what makes those ideas, and now you, far right.
If I hadn't been sick for the past week and posting with half my brain shut off I'd have mentioned human dignity before, my apologies for only mentioning it now.
Akka
Moody old mage.
Yeah, well, being sick with half the brain shut off might explain the bizarre claim that illegally trespassing into a place you're not welcome is "dignity" and "human right".
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Akka
Moody old mage.
So you make a ridiculous and nonsensical argument and when pointed at how absurd it is, your only answer is about throwing insults.
Kinda revealing.
But I take note : deliberately trespassing into a place where you know you're not welcome is a human right based in dignity. Can't find a flaw in the logic.
Are illegal immigrants always unwanted or are they usually only unwanted by a minority of people?
Klaus Hergersheimer
Prince
It was similar to a response I was expecting: that having an immigration agency will by its nature mean that not everyone can be accepted, meaning it is inherently restrictive in some way which anyone who doesn't believe in national boundaries as is will just find intolerable. So to me to there is really no perceptible difference between a moderate stance on immigration versus a moderate-right or a far-right one; they would all be equally objectionable...
therefore, what the heck, they're all far right
There absolutely is a difference. Some people just want to pretend their opinions are closer to the (often mythical) centre than they actually are.
For example, I find most right-wing positions on immigration objectionable. I don't find them equally so. To claim others do is to invent a strawman argument nobody actually made.
2.5 years after Governor of New York (D) Andrew Cuomo resigned, a deal has been reached between the New York executive chamber and the DOJ.
www.theguardian.com
And the response:
It should help convict him in sexual harassment lawsuits in New York I think.
Andrew Cuomo found to have subjected 13 women to ‘sexually hostile work environment’
US DoJ reaches agreement with New York state executive chamber over workplace conduct of former governor, who quit in 2021
And the response:
It should help convict him in sexual harassment lawsuits in New York I think.
Akka
Moody old mage.
The very first post I made on the subject underline precisely the disconnect between the political class (and also actually a good amount of the media) and the general population :
Most of the propositions that are described as being from the far-right, are actually massively supported by the public opinion (in the vicinity of about 70 %).
The law was described as being incredibly harsh and going "too far", but the actual reality is that it was considered "adequate" by nearly half the population, "not going far enough" by over a third, and only "going too far" by one sixth.
You can guess from this if it's just a minority of people who don't want illegal migrants in the country.
Even the legal immigrants are unwanted by the majority of the population (about 70% of the population don't want to use immigration to compensate for lower natality, about 75 % are favorable to quotas, more than 60 % think that there are too many immigrants in the country, etc.).
Don't confuse the usual ideological blindness making basically everything related to border controls considered "far-right" with reality. The vast majority of the population (of most countries) WANT to be able to decide who can come in their homeland and who can't, and the failure to address this problem combined with the knee-jerk attempt at shaming everyone who think as such as "far-right", is a significant cause for, precisely, the rise of far-right in many countries.
EnglishEdward
Deity
That is a false dilemma, because they might be unwanted by a majority of the people.
Would love to see some actual stats here beyond "trust me, I said so".
The UK has had for years, under the Tories, an increasingly restrictive and even punitive immigration policy. It didn't stop anything about the far-right.
So, again, evidence over vibes. Because the evidence doesn't support you.
It feels like you're feeling shamed, and are trying to rationalise this into a wider problem than the personal anecdote that it is.
I would guess that it varies from country to country. In the US I would say less than a majority favor the strict far right position of a wall and concertina wire everywhere possible. Most folks understand that immigrants, legal and illegal, do not take jobs from US citizens.
Do you have a source for that claim?
Farm Boy
run boy run
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Yet they generally do favor permitting rather than uncontrolled. This isn't an island...
Most people do prefer a more organized process but that does not mean concertina wire. The GOP does not want to solve the problem because it is too valuable as a political issue as has been made very clear this past week. It was the same with abortion for 25 years. Keeping right wing hot buttons hot and unresolved keeps the voters turning out. Trump and the GOP house do not want a bipartisan bill to solve the issue. Politics over the good of the country. It is quite ironic that once they won with SCOTUS overturning Roe, they have been losing elections because even republican women are now pissed off. The GOP has become the party of hate who will whatever it takes not to lose.
Farm Boy
run boy run
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Some of then don't, namely the re-re Trump wing. But hey, it's all the same I guess. Gotta gerrymander in another aesthetically pleasing face.
How do you think borders get controlled? With cake and water stations? Even our glorious sanctuaries are pursuing punishing people who bring them the refugees they "asked for" because "Texans are raaaaysist." Just "go someplace more affordable, no, you aren't allowed to work." Lawl.
How do you think borders get controlled? With cake and water stations? Even our glorious sanctuaries are pursuing punishing people who bring them the refugees they "asked for" because "Texans are raaaaysist." Just "go someplace more affordable, no, you aren't allowed to work." Lawl.
A huge part of the US immigration problem is that the US is in demand as a place live. In the past it was mainly a place for Mexicans to go and then bring along their families. But so much of the world is in terrible shape that people from all over the world are desperate to come here regardless of the difficulties in doing so. Mexico has little incentive or power to stop the flow. There are just too many and not enough border staff or infrastructure to actually slow the tide.
