[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Takhisis]

Is anyone not trying to address those reasons?

Republicans?

 

[Berzerker]

end welfare?

 

[Estebonrober]

Some... Shouldn't those reasons be addressed?

Ok lets get more specific. Welfare and no fault divorce with social acceptance of divorce came about around the same time, so I think this might actually be one of those correlation not causation things TMIT loves to run his mouth about. Of course welfare does encourage not putting up with spouses you don't like as well so there is that too.

 

[cardgame]

"Why did divorce jump when women could work for a wage?"

Obviously the answer is evil feminism, and not, you know, women escaping terrible situations because they were no longer financially pressured to stay in them.

I can't remember your position on feminism and it's off topic anyway so I don't mean to mishcaracterize you, @Berzerker, if this doesn't fit. It's an analogy.

 

[Estebonrober]

"Why did divorce jump when women could work for a wage?"

Obviously the answer is evil feminism, and not, you know, women escaping terrible situations because they were no longer financially pressured to stay in them.

I can't remember your position on feminism and it's off topic anyway so I don't mean to mishcaracterize you, @Berzerker, if this doesn't fit. It's an analogy.

oh yea women working too! but nvm its the evil welfare. . . obviously!

 

[Berzerker]

"Why did divorce jump when women could work for a wage?"

Obviously the answer is evil feminism, and not, you know, women escaping terrible situations because they were no longer financially pressured to stay in them.

I can't remember your position on feminism and it's off topic anyway so I don't mean to mishcaracterize you, @Berzerker, if this doesn't fit. It's an analogy.

oh yea women working too! but nvm its the evil welfare. . . obviously!

I dont think feminism had much to do with single black mothers and dead or jailed fathers, thats a luxury for wealthier white women. So you're happy with the welfare system, Este?

 

[Estebonrober]

I dont think feminism had much to do with single black mothers and dead or jailed fathers, thats a luxury for wealthier white women. So you're happy with the welfare system, Este?

Oh I'd dramatically expand it. First off nationalized healthcare, second a job guarantee, third a UBI meeting a minimum non squalor based lifestyle.

I think feminism has more to do with divorce then you are giving it credit for and it has consequences for single black mothers and jailed fathers.

 

[El_Machinae]

Do you want the answer or do you want to crow 'gotcha'? I believe either BirdJag or ElMac (apologies if I'm wrong) already explained in a paragraph or three that the war on poverty introduced some perverse incentives that were a mistake, and furthermore that this does not discredit welfare as a whole. Additionally, the war on drugs began to hit a lot harder shortly after, so you can hardly blame bad welfare policies alone.

I think he's looking to blame some single-cause left-wing intervention, but this is dumb, because our modern conversation is about systemic racism. The post-war labour union movement was reasonably strong and lead to increasing and dependable wages. But guess what? They were racist AF.

Then we brought in welfare policies (with good intentions, probably, just bungled). The bad part of those welfare policies disproportionately created perverse incentives or were just outright damaging based on people's underlying poverty. But guess what, because of previous actions by racists, black people were already more likely to be truely poor when the politically acceptable policies rolled out.

Nixon then started the Drug War. Because racists already infected the police forces (and, I'll grant, because people are bad at statistics) the effects of the Drug War fell harder on black communities. Reagan aggravated some of the damaging aspects of welfare (while also repairing other aspects, I'll grant, it was a pretty big effort) and actively created the fiscal infrastructure that aggravates the generational divide. Clinton failed to deliver (or was stopped, maybe?) from providing a true alternative to America's looming healthcare disaster but also comprehensive criminal reform. Bush passed more 'welfare' legislation that further damaged the racial disparity and also continued Reagan's efforts to shuttle generational wealth upwards. Obama had two years within which to make any real changes and spent it on the ACA.

Trump then pardoned Arpaio who was essentially convicted of racist over-reach of legal powers and told SOBs to get off the field. But he also passed the First Step act which allows a portion of felons to return more easily into a society that they might be denied voting rights in. Oh, and then further shuttled generational wealth upwards as if he were personally a billionaire who wanted to leave a legacy to his kid.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Dont know why we are talking of divorce. Got to be married before you get a divorce.

Babies born to unmarried mothers has soared the last five decades. I dont think it's common to divorce once you have a baby on the way.....

That's not to say bringing back shotgun weddings are an ideal solution.

 

[Berzerker]

Oh I'd dramatically expand it. First off nationalized healthcare, second a job guarantee, third a UBI meeting a minimum non squalor based lifestyle.

I think feminism has more to do with divorce then you are giving it credit for and it has consequences for single black mothers and jailed fathers.

I didn't mention divorce or feminism and I dont think either have much to do with the rise in single black women raising kids. So how are you gonna avoid the perverse incentives that do have something to do with the problem? Give people more money so marriage and 2 parent households are even less important?

I think he's looking to blame some single-cause left-wing intervention, but this is dumb, because our modern conversation is about systemic racism.

Not a single cause, the drug war combined with the welfare system has produced this situation. Systemic racism was far worse in the past under Jim Crow when 2 parent black families were the norm.

Then we brought in welfare policies (with good intentions, probably, just bungled). The bad part of those welfare policies disproportionately created perverse incentives or were just outright damaging based on people's underlying poverty.

Perverse incentives encouraging less marriage and absent fathers?

Nixon then started the Drug War. Because racists already infected the police forces (and, I'll grant, because people are bad at statistics) the effects of the Drug War fell harder on black communities.

Democrats have been running these big cities for decades, are they the racists you're talking about?

Black support for the drug war didn't just grow in New York. At the federal level, members of the newly-formed Congressional Black Caucus met with President Richard Nixon, urging him to ramp up the drug war as fast as possible.

https://www.wnyc.org/story/312823-b...ned-strict-drug-laws-they-now-seek-dismantle/

Jail more black people - the Black Caucus

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I think this is the funniest aspect of this whole discussion. Reactionaries will call Jim Crow "the distant past or the ancient past" and then turn around and say without any trace of irony that the modern world was shaped by the Battle of Marathon

Oh God yes this happens all the time. Marathon this, marathon that. You can't have any discussion like this at all without the Battle of bloody Marathon coming up all the time. Frankly it's a relief when the conversation turns to Nazis.

 

[Gorbles]

Back on the subject of protesting for a minute, as I don't have a lot of of exposure to US print media or TV channels, has coverage of the ongoing protests dropped off or something?

It looks like there is far less violence to report on (at least from the protestors), which would ideally be great for channels that want to cover the topic. Unfortunately, and anecdotally, the only reason I know large-scale protests are ongoing is because of social media.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I'm glad to see that the RD thread lives up to its promise, and has a high level of discussion, keeping it straight on topic and not wandering into absolute idiocy.

This is the CFCAZ/CFCOP. No mods allowed in here.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

This is the CFCAZ/CFCOP. No mods allowed in here.

Why are you here then?

 

[gay_Aleks]

This is the CFCAZ/CFCOP. No mods allowed in here.

Yes, nothing says "Autonomous Zone" and "Organized Protest" within OT than arguing with a "libertarian" batting for cops nine times out of ten, despite some supposed arguments against the drug war. Truly.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Yes, nothing says "Autonomous Zone" and "Organized Protest" within OT than arguing with a "libertarian" batting for cops nine times out of ten, despite some supposed arguments against the drug war. Truly.

The only winning move in this game is to not play.

 

[thecrazyscot]

Back on the subject of protesting for a minute, as I don't have a lot of of exposure to US print media or TV channels, has coverage of the ongoing protests dropped off or something?

Yes. Although it pops back up when something particularly "shocking" happens (shocking being dependent on the...bent...of the news organization reporting the story).
Same goes for the ongoing pandemic.
Long-term events aren't good fits for the contemporary news cycle.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Yes. Although it pops back up when something particularly "shocking" happens (shocking being dependent on the...bent...of the news organization reporting the story).
Same goes for the ongoing pandemic.
Long-term events aren't good fits for the contemporary news cycle.

Not so much this as much as a deliberate operation to cover up any protests, so that everything is, supposedly, completely normal.

 

[AmazonQueen]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...-frederick-douglass/ar-BB16ogAa?ocid=msedgntp

No actual proof of who vandalised the statue of black abolitionist Frederick Douglas. It didn't occur during a protest and there was no graffiti but Trump knows who was responsible.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ok lets get more specific. Welfare and no fault divorce with social acceptance of divorce came about around the same time, so I think this might actually be one of those correlation not causation things TMIT loves to run his mouth about. Of course welfare does encourage not putting up with spouses you don't like as well so there is that too.

Correct. We can trace financial incentives for behavior with regards to these, and they are consistent with how people act with other financial incentives. We also have pretty good data about two parent households vs single parent households and outcomes for children.

It would be foolish to assume this is the only reason for disparity, just like it's foolish to assume that smoking is the only reason people die of lung complications. However, it's a causal factor with clear data that it is harmful, one of several that don't rely on statistics abuse to make unsubstantiated claims using a process that isn't consistently upheld.

Oh I'd dramatically expand it. First off nationalized healthcare, second a job guarantee, third a UBI meeting a minimum non squalor based lifestyle.

This would harm the black community significantly, although it would also harm most other people.

Babies born to unmarried mothers has soared the last five decades. I dont think it's common to divorce once you have a baby on the way.....

The answer to that falls under "welfare". And yes, this is as relevant to the thread as any "disproportionate black representation" argument can be.

Systemic racism was far worse in the past under Jim Crow when 2 parent black families were the norm.

It was far worse because it provably existed. The racism was outright codified by law. That would definitely be considered "systemic"!

Back on the subject of protesting for a minute, as I don't have a lot of of exposure to US print media or TV channels, has coverage of the ongoing protests dropped off or something?

Seems so. I'd like to point out that a lot of the coverage of the protests deliberately cuts videos to misrepresent what's happening too. The New Mexico shooting was really egregious to the point of false reporting, but cutting footage to paint a narrative is consistently being done by every major news organization I've seen.

Long-term events aren't good fits for the contemporary news cycle.

Pretty much this. And I suspect this will have a non-trivial effect on the protests themselves, as people tend to get discouraged if they're sending a message that isn't being heard.

Not so much this as much as a deliberate operation to cover up any protests, so that everything is, supposedly, completely normal.

Given what we know about most media outlets in the USA that's a lot of tin foil in supposing that they're trying to cover up protests after going out of their way to paint them in a good (or bad if it's Fox) light.