Georgia finally engages in a war

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

If you are going to spell it wrong at least decide one way your going to do it and stick with it.

Its nearly 4 AM here! Don't blame me if I'm out of it...

 

[Winner]

But do things not change overtime? Could they not seperate and become there own country, rather it be right or wrong? I don't back either side and I'll condemn that actions of those who shouldn't be there...

Depends. Peaceful break up is possible, look at Czechoslovakia. No civil war, no grudge, it was perfectly smooth. That's because both sides agreed with it.

If the Slovaks had started blowing our civilians up and launched an insurgency instead of negotiating, I am pretty sure it would have ended up very badly.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia simply started shooting first and thus destroyed any prospect for a negotiated solution. Now it's time to destroy the corrupt rebel regimes in these "republics" and bring them back under Georgian rule. Then, when the criminas are arrested and removed from power and the situation calms down, they can start talking about a compromise solution (e.g. broad autonomy).

Believe it or not I've come to agree with you on some subjects... but can we not agree that some things stated at times hold a hint of Hypocricy! Or at least the potential?

I simply don't see any similarities between Russian attempts to curb the sovereignty of certain countries and the Georgian anti-isurgency operation.

 

[Gelion]

If Korea, the Berlin Airlift, and the Cuban Missile Crisis did not start WW3, I'm not losing any sleep over this.

Me neither, however I begin to feel uncomfortable. Regarding the Cuban Missile Crisis, all I can say is that I don't want to get as close to WW as in 1962.

Aside from Georgia being a state in the US, as pointed out above...

I know... they should totally change their country name in English.

What does the US have to do with this? Russia strong-armed the UN into allowing them exclusive peace-keepers in the separatist area. They are basically occupying northern Georgia. Fine, the Russians are involved (heavily even).

This is a mirror of the Kosovo situation where Russians are NATO and Georgians are the Serbs. US has been backing the other side with arms, advisers (re-training 4,000 Georgian troops). The main involvement is around Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline that US wants to preserve and Russia wants to either cut or control.

So, where are the US troops? Advisors? Anything?

There are no troops, but American advisers have been present since 2002: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/mar/10/usa.september11 (find Georgia). Information about actual American contingent are hard to find in English internet, but I am looking for it.

If Georgia wants to prevent a secession, that's their problem. If they want to join NATO, that's their business.

I agree, but as it is not only a Georgian issue (Ossetian, Russian and American for example) it is not only up to Georgia. In our world actions of one party affect the other, so really there's no "my issue", there's only "more my issue than yours".

Only Russia is involved directly, but... somehow... people want to pretend that the US has a hand in this.

You are welcome to google american oil projects, intelligence and military projects (in English I mean). I am doing the same.

And, if Georgia joins NATO, and Russia invades it, then the US would be obliged to defend it.

Exactly why this situation is explosive in the best traditions of the Cold War.

russian and georgian peacekeepers both sound like a really bad idea, i thought peacekeepers where usually from some far off neutral country so they wont take sides

Putin went to the UN and demanded that only Russian troops be allowed to serve as peacekeepers in the conflict zone.

Putin was not there at the time.... clearly I am more informed of the conflict than you. As to the point, it was done to keep NATO or any other pro-American troops away from Russian border. I also doubt that Ossetians would have trusted any other troops as Russia guarantees their lives, everyone else would just "fulfill a mandate".

Get real, Gelion.

Fine, maybe I exaggerated a bit. Still, the relations between US and RUS are more tense than they were 2 days ago, with a huge growth potential. Enough for me.

Georgia is just reclaiming her lawful territories from the separatist gangster government. You did something like that against Chechnya few years ago, on much larger scale with huge loss of life among the civilians (remember your little WW2 style bombing of Grozny?). You're in no position to denounce Georgian actions.

I know your position on the Kosovo situation and I admire it.
Chechen situation is different as it happened only after 1,500 armed bastards attacked Russia with an aim to spread their regime elsewhere in Caucasus. Georgia moved in on their own account.

And to call Georgia imperialist now is the same like calling Czechoslovakia imperialist in September 1938. If there is an imperialist power in the region, it's clearly Russia.

Who did you attack in 1938? As far as imperialism goes: Imperialism involves subduing other nations so really in this case, it all depends on the scale of your analysis.

Me to, it's the shortest way how to end the bloodshed and protect lawfulness the region.

Great so Georgians can begin to cleanse Ossetians from their land again.

NATO should begin airlifting weapons for the Georgian military and warn Russia of any direct intervention. Intervention includes "volunteer" troops from the North.

This is exactly what I am afraid of: both NATO (read US) and Russia getting involved militarily. I don't get it Winner, you laugh at me for being afraid of WW3 and then you propose an action that would potentially escalate to a proxi war that might get hot.

Which is one of the reasons they're not in NATO. Nobody wants to get involved in these conflicts.

and yet you condone them.

BehindTheMask, I do hope you mean the government.
=======

Vesti and BBC are, of course, reporting the situation differently. According to Vesti.ru the fighting has moved into the center of Tshinvali, many wounded and dead - some are among Russian peacekeepers. Georgians are continuously firing at their positions.

Many women and children were moved out of Tshinvali a few days earlier, what Georgian officials have called a "farce". It seems that the measure was necessary after all.

I will try to give you more updates that BBC does not cover as I get them.

 

[scy12]

South Ossetia and Abkhazia simply started shooting first and thus destroyed any prospect for a negotiated solution. Now it's time to destroy the corrupt rebel regimes in these "republics" and bring them back under Georgian rule. Then, when the criminas are arrested and removed from power and the situation calms down, they can start talking about a compromise solution (e.g. broad autonomy).

What if those regions are not Georgian then it will be more than anything a foreign occupation. In case of Rebel regions , i don't accept the opinion that one has every right to use force against them to occupy them.

 

[Winner]

Fine, maybe I exaggerated a bit. Still, the relations between US and RUS are more tense than they were 2 days ago, with a huge growth potential. Enough for me.

OK. If it seems to you that your government is about to push the red button, just let me know (PM me or something) so that I can move to a shelter

I know your position on the Kosovo situation and I admire it.

Yeah, Kosovo now backfired just as I predicted. If the NATO didn't help the rebellious Albanian criminals in Kosovo, it could easily claim moral highground now and openly help the Georgians. Because of that idiotic decision to grant them independence, we now look like hypocrites every time some other gangesters demand independence and we don't support them.

Chechen situation is different as it happened only after 1,500 armed bastards attacked Russia with an aim to spread their regime elsewhere in Caucasus. Georgia moved in on their own account.

Georgians claim that they were repeatedly attacked by the South Ossetian rebels - how is that different? They were attacked by rebels and it was the last straw, now they decided to put an end to their criminal regime. I can't say I disagree with their reaction.

Who did you attack in 1938? As far as imperialism goes: Imperialism involves subduing other nations so really in this case, it all depends on the scale of your analysis.

Czechs were blamed for "oppressing" the ethnic minorities in Czechoslovakia: Sudeten Germans, Slovaks, Hungarians etc. Of course in fact we were the victim, but just as now the stronger and aggressive country managed to convince the rest of the world that the smaller country (which needed to be destroyed) was in fact the aggressor.

Great so Georgians can begin to cleanse Ossetians from their land again.

No. But they should be allowed to restore law in the province. Ethnic cleansing is unacceptable. And AFAIK it was the rebels who started driving people out because of their ethnic background.

This is exactly what I am afraid of: both NATO (read US) and Russia getting involved militarily. I don't get it Winner, you laugh at me for being afraid of WW3 and then you propose an action that would potentially escalate to a proxi war that might get hot.

Russia is a shadow of its former strength. I am not afraid of any great war, because I count with the fact that the Russian leaders are sane enough to understand that they can't win in any direct confrontation.

I see NATO's role as an democratic alliance which is ought to protect the sovereignty of endangered countries. Georgia is no doubt threaten by Russia, so it should be our duty to help them, no matter how much would it infuriate your government.

and yet you condone them.

 

[Winner]

What if those regions are not Georgian then it will be more than anything a foreign occupation. In case of Rebel regions , i don't accept the opinion that one has every right to use force against them to occupy them.

You don't see the point - these breakaway regions are led by criminals, often the worst kind of war criminals - those who ordered ethnic cleansings, massacres etc.

Such people can't be allowed to reign in these provinces, because then no peace could ever be concluded. It's lesser evil to remove them by force, find some other people willing to cooperate and make a deal with them. As I said - offer them autonomy in cultural, economic and political affairs as long as they agree not to secede and obey the country's foreign policy and constitution.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

You don't see the point - these breakaway regions are led by criminals, often the worst kind of war criminals - those who ordered ethnic cleansings, massacres etc.

Such people can't be allowed to reign in these provinces, because then no peace could ever be concluded. It's lesser evil to remove them by force, find some other people willing to cooperate and make a deal with them. As I said - offer them autonomy in cultural, economic and political affairs as long as they agree not to secede and obey the country's foreign policy and constitution.

And thus we reach a point which I agree with you on...

As earlier I claimed I'm not taking sides (Certainly not Russia's side, for I do believe we have no buisness in it all)

But at times I am sure there are exceptions to such... not all breakaways have to be crimnals, but as fate would have it all up to this point seem to be... Course, thats a diffrent sunject I suppose.

Anways, I'm all for Georgia rightfully keeping order. Perhaps I got to involved in trying to compare with other subjects.

The least we can all hope for is this whole thing doesn't get out of hand.

 

[scy12]

You don't see the point - these breakaway regions are led by criminals, often the worst kind of war criminals - those who ordered ethnic cleansings, massacres etc.

Such people can't be allowed to reign in these provinces, because then no peace could ever be concluded. It's lesser evil to remove them by force, find some other people willing to cooperate and make a deal with them. As I said - offer them autonomy in cultural, economic and political affairs as long as they agree not to secede and obey the country's foreign policy and constitution.

As I said - offer them autonomy in cultural, economic and political affairs as long as they agree not to secede and obey the country's foreign policy and constitution.

Ahm , why ? If they are autonomous that implies that their autonomy is unconditional. And why should they obey Georgia's constitution ? They are not Georgia.

So while i would normally support Georgia in this war if they would give them autonomy , i will remain neutral because it appears they only want , occupation or having a protectorate.

You don't see the point - these breakaway regions are led by criminals, often the worst kind of war criminals - those who ordered ethnic cleansings, massacres etc.

Such people can't be allowed to reign in these provinces, because then no peace could ever be concluded

Which people and how do the Georgians compare to them ? And i hate the " They are scum,criminals , we have the right to impose our will on them " arguement. Because even if it is the truth in one particular case it is used so extensively even when it is untrue , that it becomes meaningless or even convincing of the opposite.

 

[Winner]

Hm, I am browsing through Czech media now and it looks like a great deal of Georgian weapons were supplied from the Czech Rep.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Hm, I am browsing through Czech media now and it looks like a great deal of Georgian weapons were supplied from the Czech Rep.

Lol, when America doesn't do it, they get their European Puppies to do it...

 

[Winner]

Lol, when America doesn't do it, they get their European Puppies to do it...

Someone stole your account? I wouldn't expect a Pole talking about US puppies

It's of course totally wrong. Americans usually don't want anyone to sell weapons when they can sell them themselves - they forbade the new Afghan government from buying our stuff only to supply their own products weeks later. It's simple: Czech Rep. has a lot of Cold war weapons we need to get rid of and Georgia uses this stuff. They want it, so we sell it

 

[TheLastOne36]

Someone stole your account? I wouldn't expect a Pole talking about US puppies

It's of course totally wrong. Americans usually don't want anyone to sell weapons when they can sell them themselves - they forbade the new Afghan government from buying our stuff only to supply their own products weeks later. It's simple: Czech Rep. has a lot of Cold war weapons we need to get rid of and Georgia uses this stuff. They want it, so we sell it

Well Poland included. Why wouldn't we be a "puppy" when we have the third biggest army in Iraq?

 

[silver 2039]

I hope Russia crushes and annexes Georgia.

There can only be one Georgia!

 

[Winner]

Well Poland included. Why wouldn't we be a "puppy" when we have the third biggest army in Iraq?

Um, your terminology is rather strange. Anyway, OT, discussion over.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Um, your terminology is rather strange. Anyway, OT, discussion over.

Maybe something lost in translation?

Anyway in Poland, we have more of a "Let the Americans build anti-missle stuff so we don't have to" Attitude.

 

[Algeroth]

But it's Georgia in Eastern or Central Europe?

 

[Winner]

But it's Georgia in Eastern or Central Europe?

Reported for trolling

 

[TheLastOne36]

But it's Georgia in Eastern or Central Europe?

Well, it's more of a question of is Georgia in Eastern, Southern europe or not in Europe at all?

 

[Winner]

Well, it's more of a question of is Georgia in Eastern, Southern europe or not in Europe at all?

Don't feed trolls

 

[TheLastOne36]

Don't feed trolls

Actually according to the Troll thread, Trolling doesn't refer to a bug fuzzy creature but to a fishing term. So "feed" is an inappropriete term and a better word would be "bait".