Graduate School!

[Joecoolyo]

Whoa, a Joecoolyo thread? No way!

Yes, I have decided to make a thread for this. Long story short, its come that time in my college career where I'm starting to research what exactly I want to do with my education - and my life - once I graduate next year. And recently, I've become rather intrigued with Early-Modern Japanese history, specifically, the Imjin War. Don't ask me why, but I just love the period, and all the interesting ideas the conflict brings up.

Regardless, I have also noticed that something I've very much enjoyed doing over the past three years has been, well, history. I like reading things, I like writing things, I really like reading historical things and writing historical things. It's a lot of fun! So, naturally, this lead me to consider graduate school, eventually on track to become a Phd and "guy who studies history for a living." What an awesome life that would be!

For the past week or so I've been talking with my professors about the idea as well as doing some original research, and, well, I've gotten two viewpoints.

Professor A: If you start working now, studying for GRE, getting your language skills up to par (lol), touch up a great research paper you can start applying for Graduate school come the fall. It's not easy, you can expect a lot of reading and writing, but if you're motivated you can make it through. Also consider that being a professor is not the only job at the end of the track, but the skills are widely applicable to a lot of career paths (mentioning insurance).

Professor B: Don't do it. The job market is terrible. If you don't get into a top-tier Phd program, its not worth it as the limited amount of jobs are filled by them. If you don't get a job at an R1 school, you're going to spend all your time teaching instead of independent research and study. Explore the world first, there's so many more interesting jobs out there - as opposed to just studying history - that use the same skills. Also if you haven't had four straight years of Japanese you're not going to be able to compete with people who speak the language better than you (sadness ).

Professor C: If Professor B is correct, he will go over the same points and discourage me from academia and graduate study. I'm seeing him on Tuesday though if I can.

I'm torn. At first I had high hopes, I could have a fun career doing history stuff! History is awesome, and studying it is fun! What's better, I get to write! And my professors love to praise my writing (though I don't think its too hot myself, as much as I enjoy the process). But after today's visit the view is far gloomier, and I'm in a really confused place right now.

Anyhoo, to get to the point. You, graduate students (and Phd's if you're here!) of CFC, I want to hear your stories, your experiences, and your opinions. Like a good student, I'm researching as much as possible before deciding what I want to pursue and do after college. What do you think of graduate school? For those pursuing history in graduate school, what is it like and what are you plans? Are you going to go all the way through and get a doctorate? Are you stopping after a masters? Why? Did you jump into graduate school immediately after getting a bachelors degree? Are the job prospects really dismal? Tell me what you can!

Spoiler :

Personally, my plan was to take a year off school and possible enroll in a Japanese language program in Japan. Though after that talk today, I'm not sure it really cuts it as I would need to be able to read academic literature in Japanese. It seems like this is a world built for people who knew what they wanted to do early and got on it

 

[nc-1701]

I started a Phd program in math in August 2012 at the urging of my parents, professors, and just about everyone else. I got into a top 50 school and had a TA position with a decent stipend, after a year and a half I realized that even if I made it through the program I would never be a great researcher, certainly never have a job at a half decent school, etc. So I graduated with a non-thesis MA this August and got a job in healthcare IT.

1) The job market in Academia sucks really badly, unless you are absolute top tier your best bet is working at a crappy teaching college.
2) Grad school life isn't bad, your broke and you work a lot, but you also have a lot of freedom and are around potentially interesting people and eye candy (depending on the school).
3) You are probably going to have a much harder time salvaging an exact from a history program than I did.
4) For me grad school crushed my self confidence really badly, it's only now really recovering.
5) Whatever you do seriously consider all of your other options first.
6) If you don't get a full ride assistantship, RUN!!

 

[JollyRoger]

Go to law school, the eye candy will come to you, and you will soon be long past your turning Japanese days.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Breaking character because this is important:

Grad school is [copulating] nasty. Be prepared and anticipate that. When #fiddy comes back online. Pop in there. Have wry tell you what grad school is like. If you still want to do it after that go for it.

I'm not saying don't do grad school. I'm applying as a PhD candidate this winter. But the thing with grad school is that it's nightmarish. Not the workload. The politics of it. And the job prospects are simply atrocious. It's all nice and rosy to think of being a tenured professor making 200k/yr at a good school and having your research published. But you need to consider the other side of things. Are you prepared to be stuck in adjunct hell, living out of your car, making 20k/yr, fighting tooth and nail for any classes at all, shopping your research around and having the top publishers telling you no because you aren't on the tenure track? If you still want to do it after considering that (likely) possibility. Then go for it. If not, look somewhere else. There are tons of other jobs out there that let you write and do research.

Remember that competition is going to be INSANE. I graduated cum laude and with Phi Beta Kappa honors. I speak 4 languages and I'm learning Latin this summer. I interned for a reputable head-of-department at a top-25 world University and did real research working with 16th century manuscripts in Law French for him. I'm still worried about my prospects getting into a top program. Dachs was on the 8-year plan at GMU because he took an Econ second-major because he was worried about his prospects getting into a top institution.

 

[Zelig]

I started a Phd program in math in August 2012 at the urging of my parents, professors, and just about everyone else. I got into a top 50 school and had a TA position with a decent stipend, after a year and a half I realized that even if I made it through the program I would never be a great researcher, certainly never have a job at a half decent school, etc. So I graduated with a non-thesis MA this August and got a job in healthcare IT.

1) The job market in Academia sucks really badly, unless you are absolute top tier your best bet is working at a crappy teaching college.
2) Grad school life isn't bad, your broke and you work a lot, but you also have a lot of freedom and are around potentially interesting people and eye candy (depending on the school).
3) You are probably going to have a much harder time salvaging an exact from a history program than I did.
4) For me grad school crushed my self confidence really badly, it's only now really recovering.
5) Whatever you do seriously consider all of your other options first.
6) If you don't get a full ride assistantship, RUN!!

Yeah, I did math undergrad and opted out of grad school in favour of healthcare IT/stats, and then moved to corporate conglomerate work. If I do grad school now I'll just go do comp sci or business or some such on vacation in Europe and live like a king with all the money I've saved from working for the past five years. Law school also looks like fun, but it seems kind of derpy to go to law school if I've got zero intention of actually practicing law.

Grad school is [copulating] nasty. Be prepared and anticipate that.

Well it depends what you do. Engineering grad school is typically easier than either undergrad or an actual job. You don't really have to worry about politics or job prospects if you're taking a couple-year break from your engineering job to do a masters.

 

[Kennigit]

I was going to say like don't try to go to grad school unless you get a significant financial coverage. I mean I can only comment on STEM stuff (and not that well since I did not go to grad school) but I know my department explicitly said "we expect you to procure your own fellowship [from the highly competitive national fellowships]". Now they don't exactly advertise that they give support for like 1 or 2 master's students for a short term (like 1 year) but you know, it's the culture of it all. If you aren't supported fully for the full duration you aren't going to be viewed as good. Grad school in general it seems to me plenty of people float around with "good" support (TA position, some tuition, etc) but it just seems so much more stressful on them, and most don't really escape out of that. They kind of get their masters and leave, perhaps not really much better off than when they finished undergrad (they weren't the people with a clear goal for only a masters, and they weren't the people with clear support to PhD).

That said, you are exactly right that it is greatly beneficial for those that get in on it early (the earlier in undergrad the better). I flip flopped for my entire college career trying to decide if I wanted to go to grad school; I did not (partly ran out of good opportunities; didn't build any networking whatsoever and didn't feel comfortable for like the 3 weeks I was under one professor in my senior year of undergrad that was nice to me and would have supported *edit- helped and be a good advisor to* me but I didn't feel like I could do well).

That said not like the real world is that exciting. I have a job that is "in" my field of study but it really sucks right now (read: I don't really actually do any engineering functions, but I might if I stick with it).

If you get significant support maybe it will feel super stressful but so does the "real" world. If you have something you really enjoy, you can be happy in the largely-but-not-fully-supported world. At least for a master's. I definitely just never had a clear goal of anything I truly liked to do nor the confidence in other things.

 

[Axis Kast]

Some considerations. I’ve got a bachelors in history and political science as well as an M.A. in international security.

First, I think a Master’s degree can be worth its weight in gold. Unless obtained at a diploma mill, it confers a certain amount of credibility, especially if you’re in a job market outside a major city. I’ve certainly seen short-sighted, penny-pinching executives pass blanket policies that deny otherwise excellent candidates promotion based merely on lack of an advanced degree. I’ve also processed candidates for hiring in a corporate environment and found that an advanced degree is enormously valuable for getting a foot in the door. Even when an advanced degree is only one of the many considerations in play, a candidate who lacks such a degree may find that themselves irretrievably “behind” in the standings because they didn’t score well on the “educational attainment” side of things.

Second, learn to distinguish your skill set from your academic focus and market yourself accordingly. I am not a “history major for hire” or even a historian, although I have the credentials to describe myself as such. I am a researcher, analyst, and professional communicator. My education provided me with a useful toolkit of methodologies and frameworks for (A) defining problems, (B) collecting data, (C) weighing competing claims, (D) drawing defensible conclusions, and (E) communicating my results in a clear and convincing manner.

Third, consider the implications of a job “in your field.” An advanced degree need not translate into a professorship at a prestigious university. You can, for example, be a sole contributor at a think tank or non-profit. You can be a division manager or subject matter expert at a large private company. You can also go into government with the expectation of advancing more quickly through the ranks of the professional civil service on the basis of your superior expertise.

Unless you want to teach or conduct academic research, consider a policy degree designed to propel you into the broader, non-academic job market.

If you are seeking a PhD, consider whether any research or fieldwork will be necessary. In my situation, a PhD would have meant an extended stay in a country that I was ill-prepared to visit. Once I entered the job market, I found that my MA opened many doors and a PhD became steadily less relevant.

Consider opportunities for academic collaboration outside your immediate university environment. After I entered the workforce, I found that I still wished to remain active in academic discussion. I immediately started posting comments on the blogs of some of my favorite authors. In time, I was asked to share both opinions and research as a contributor. On my own initiative, I leveraged those experiences to make contacts beyond my university setting and to offer my services (pro bono) as a part-time researcher for a book being written by a major luminary in my field. I managed to find personal, academic fulfillment while still maintaining a parallel career in a different industry.

 

[Wrymouth3]

I'll keep this short and direct because there are only a few things to consider in regards to the choice of going to graduate school and the potential of a future career.

1. Your professors in most cases do not care about teaching you whatsoever and will push the research agenda on you, if you really want to do that, good for you, but if you aren't 100% behind that then you need not bother with it. Believe me when I tell you that a MA and in a lot of cases (even from the "top" institutions) a Phd in history is not going to dramatically change your life. I'm not suggesting that your only option is to wait for that promotion at Olive Garden or Target, but there are indeed many good career paths that only require a BA in basically anything.

2. Don't ever change who you are and what you love, and don't by any means let graduate school cause you the mental and physical stress in order for you to feel smarter about yourself. Chances are that 80 people on this planet will even care about your eventual research interest about the rise of a minor theological sect during the Potato War and trying to compare it to the Confessing Church of Nazi Germany. My big advice here is to maintain your interest in "Thought" and history as a whole, and not let yourself get worked up trying to impress a professor who in reality is only forcing you to research something because it's easy for them.

3. You CAN find a great career with a bachelor's degree. I currently make about $30 and hour at a law firm in Orlando as a documents clerk, and will be seeking my paralegal certification in the coming months. I'll also return to graduate school at UCF part-time because I already have 12 out of 36 credits done anyways, and I need to finish what I started, but did I really NEED to go to graduate school to get a better career? No, not really, maybe to feel better about myself but not for my general well-being or ability to pay for the rent or utilities in my apartment.

4. PM me if you want the long and personal experience details, but my experience taught me to completely disagree and denounce tenure as a concept, at least in the historical discipline.

Last. Unless you really really believe you have nowhere else to turn or will not be happy at all or feel well in any other related field, then you should really take the time to think about graduate school. The scholastic work is not hard, but the environment can be and will get toxic, the politics are disgusting, and it turns people away. You have to be 100% committed if you want to go, and believe me when I tell you it really reveals the true nature of people.

 

[Zkribbler]

Go to law school, the eye candy will come to you, and you will soon be long past your turning Japanese days.

The polls of lawyers that I've seen consistently show that, if given the chance to do it over again, 80% of lawyers would go into a different profession. If you do go that route: the positions that give the most happiness/satisfaction are: law professor, govt service (e.g. prosecutor/public defender), or legal aid.

 

[JollyRoger]

Being a solo practitioner has been the most fun I have ever had. I can't imagine ever reporting to a boss again.

 

[BvBPL]

A grad school degree isn't as fungible as a college degree. Your grad degree, particularly a liberal arts degree, is much more focused on the field you choice and a masters or PhD in Japanese history means less to most employers than your BA in the same. Which is to say that there's a diminishing rate of return for employers that aren't looking specifically for what you've got. The job market in academia is really, really crappy right now, but that doesn't mean the degree isn't valuable or useful, just that you can't rest on the notion that you'll be teaching undergrads for a reasonable salary after you get your degree.

If you come into that with your eyes open and attentive to future employment and having weighed the pros and cons then I say do it.

If you do do it then before sure you finish. There are a ton of people out there who are a chapter and a defense away from their PhDs. They are lame.

Go to law school, the eye candy will come to you, and you will soon be long past your turning Japanese days.

Oh God, I just threw up in a bit in my mouth.

 

[Atticus]

I was doing PhD on maths for 2-3 years and then dropped out. The life of a researcher was a bit different that I expected. If writing your master's/bachelor's theses causes anxiety, that may be what you will experience as a PhD student too. (This may be different depending on how much you are integrated to some program or something like that. I saw my advisor once in a month or two, and for the rest of the time pretty much tried to solve a problem. And that was a problem, so it was a bit depressing. This may be very different in other sciences though, it's hard to think that you'd be stuck with one problem for that long time in history for example).

Anyhow, I don't want to discourage you, but instead give one advice: make sure that you have some other possibility to make living. It's much easier to cope with the stress when you know you have other options too. After dropping out I've been in various jobs and have studied a little more, and now it begins to look like doing the PhD thing wasn't that bad after all. Other jobs have their downsides too.

Bottom line: It's always easier to do stuff if you know you got other options too.

 

[dutchfire]

Perspective from a STEM grad student in the Netherlands [yeah, parts of the experience might not translate well].

* Here, you already have done a 1 or 2 year Masters program before starting your (4 year) PhD. So dropping out half way really means you've got nothing.
* grad students get paid and it is considered a real job. As in: you pay tax and social security fees, which also means you are entitled to benefits when your contract ends or if you get sick and so on. The Netherlands is rather unique in this aspect.
* The money isn't great, don't expect to buy a house, but enough to support a students life style and then some.
* Good opportunities for paid travel to interesting locations, and it is also quite easy to take some time off to go on holiday yourself.
* The academic job market is not a thing, maybe 1 in 20 PhDs will ever get a permanent position.
* The non-academic job market for STEM people is pretty good. It is not very clear if a PhD is better than just a masters, but it won't hurt.
* All the internal politics is a mess.
* Many grad students couple their own mental health to the status of their project. Don't do that!

 

[uppi]

I will probably finish my PhD in physics within a year. I started after getting the equivalent of a masters (which is a requirement here) and I do not regret it.

Here are my thoughts:

• If you are really interested in the subject it can be quite fun. I do not think the degree itself is worth the trouble, you have to be able to somewhat enjoy getting there.
• Do not count on getting a job in academia afterwards. Look at the number of people finishing their PhD and compare it to the number of professors (and other long-term positions, but there are even less of those). Do the math and see that it is not sufficient to be very good at what you do to have a future there. You need to have other options.
• Choose your advisor very carefully. It is within his power to make your life hell, so ensure that he is not the type to use that power. A good advisor makes the difference between the work being occasionally stressful and stressful all the time. He also makes the difference between you and your fellow grad students helping each other and competing with each other. Talk to PhD candidates of your potential advisor if you have the chance.
• Despite its name, it stops being a school at one point. At the end you are supposed to find something new and become a world leading expert in an admittedly extremely narrow subject. People can teach you how to get there, but you have to get there by yourself.
• Essentially, I was paid for my research. Not very well, but enough to be comfortable. Obviously, that is by far the best option, but you have to take what you can get. Again, a good advisor that ensures that his students get by can make a huge difference.

Edit: And I concur to what dutchfire said.

 

[The_J]

While reading this, I get the feeling that there are some differences between a) STEM and the rest and b) Europe vs. US.

One thing, for clarification:

* Here, you already have done a 1 or 2 year Masters program before starting your (4 year) PhD. So dropping out half way really means you've got nothing.
* grad students get paid and it is considered a real job. As in: you pay tax and social security fees, which also means you are entitled to benefits when your contract ends or if you get sick and so on.

I thought in the US "grad school" normally means getting your master's degree, whereas here in Europe it normally means doing your PhD. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Rest of the post sounds about right for me ^^; Life as a PhD student here isn't bad, you have lots of flexibility and freedom, but at some points also a ton of stress. Two of my collaboration partners recently had to take vacations because the mental stress resulted in physiological problems, but I hope that's not really common o_O.


Main advice, as other people said beforehand: Do whatever you like (in case you can afford it and achieve it).
You don't want to be stuck for the rest of your life with a job which you don't enjoy.


While I read that you like the writing part: Consider that there'll be a time when your current topic might just be utterly uninteresting or whatever results you have might be totally boring. You still need to be able to write something about it.

 

[uppi]

I thought in the US "grad school" normally means getting your master's degree, whereas here in Europe it normally means doing your PhD.

In the US it means both and you can start work on your PhD without getting a master's degree. In Europe every country has its own system and these English terms are an attempt to find an equivalent to that system (which was described in native language terms until recently). Because there often is no exact equivalent, this usually ends in difficulties in translation and confusion.

You have to be familiar with the system of a particular country to be able to tell what exactly a speaker means with 'grad school'.

 

[downtown]

I think I would recommend against pursuing a humanities based graduate degree right after your undergrad unless you are an absolute ace student that knows you can not only get into an elite graduate program for your studies, but do very well there.

Simply put, the job market for academics is terrible, and unlikely to improve in the near future, making the field very competitive. As BvBPL noted, getting a history specific graduate degree gives you a pretty narrow field where you can apply it. Plus, you have to consider the opportunity cost of the degree, in not just time, but debt.

Axis Kast is also correct in that a more broad-based advanced degree can open a lot of doors for you, like something policy, public administration or international-focused. It can make advancement in government jobs easier, and give a leg up in other highly competitive labor markets. That being said, I know an awful lot of 26ish year olds here in DC with two degrees, not much work experience who are pushing papers at Think Tanks for 36K and a lot of debt.

My best advice, I think, would be to work, if just for a few years, before you do anything. Some practical work experience will help make your application to graduate schools a little stronger, and most importantly, it will give you time to figure out your next step. You may love this arcane bit of history now, but perhaps in two years, after working, you'll realize that you like something else better. Or maybe two years doing something that sucks will only harden your resolve to make it as an academic, and now you know you're willing to grind like hell to get it.

There are a TON of things you can do, if you're creative, with a BA in History. There are less things where that Masters or PhD will help you with, so you've got to be totally sure that's 100% what you want.

 

[dutchfire]

[*]Choose your advisor very carefully. It is within his power to make your life hell, so ensure that he is not the type to use that power. A good advisor makes the difference between the work being occasionally stressful and stressful all the time. He also makes the difference between you and your fellow grad students helping each other and competing with each other. Talk to PhD candidates of your potential advisor if you have the chance.

Good point

While reading this, I get the feeling that there are some differences between a) STEM and the rest and b) Europe vs. US.

Given the funding situation in the US, there are remarkably few American PhD students over here, in my experience.

 

[Zelig]

Given the funding situation in the US, there are remarkably few American PhD students over here, in my experience.

There are remarkably few Americans outside of America in pretty much any capacity.

 

[Phrossack]

I am in pretty much the same situation as Joe. I toy with the idea of doing grad school here in Germany, since it's so much cheaper than in America, but I don't know what either country's grad school system is like and German grad school might demand incredibly fluent German, which I lack. But this is assuming I even get to that point. The more I hear about it, the more I'm turned off by the idea of grad school.

At the same time, what else am I supposed to do? What can you do with a BA in history in the US or Germany or other countries? I might get a teaching certification so I can maybe teach history at a high school or something, though that may require a Master's, and I frankly don't much like high schoolers. The majority of them just don't care about their classes or the subject at hand and they don't want to be there.

Outside of history, I could try to do something with one of my other main interests, language. But I only know one and a half, maybe two languages right now, and I'm not getting any younger, so learning another two or three or five might not be feasible. I'd love to travel the world teaching and learning languages and getting paid to do it, but because I'm so linguistically limited (I don't even understand IPA), I'm at a huge disadvantage. I have some experience with caring for horses and dogs, but somehow that just doesn't seem like a feasible or fulfilling option for me right now as a career (hobby, definitely). Doing something involving the environment, like being a park ranger, controlling invasive species, or doing something involving recycling might be fulfilling but I probably lack the required education. Other than that, I can't think of many careers for me that I'd find feasible, fulfilling, and not foolish.