Gun Rights

[bombshoo]

No, it wouldn't be. SCOTUS is able to add 2+2 just as easily as anyone else (excepting a few in the Senate and about half of the House, that keep coming up with 3 or 5).

Depends who is on the court at the time.

 

[Agent327]

This is one reason why I don't really worry too much about how the 2nd Amendment is interpreted. My Missouri Constitution flat out says it is an individual right, so stuff the SC if they wrongly interpret the US Constitution's 2nd amendment. I still have my personal right just by virtue of being a Missouri citizen.

Interesting how people always fail to acknowledge that the Constitution was written for different times, for a nation at war - or rather a nation in revolt.

Well Switzerland is pretty damn safe and they have guns, so does Norway and the like. If your looking at US figures it's skewed by black / hispanic urbanites who kill each other in gangs - I'm not in a gang I don't want too I'm not going to deliberatly murder someone I will use it when needed.

Apart rom the skewed reasoning I doubt many murders and/or manslaughters happen as follows:

1) I'm gonna buy a gun
2) I'm gonna shoot someone with it.

The problem is once you have a gun, you can shoot someone and youu're more likely to get in a violent-related crime.

We are 24th in murder per capita. Colombia has a rate which is 14 times higher than ours and Finland's rate is only 50% lower than ours.

And as far as total crime rate is concerned, Finland, Denmark, and the UK have higher rates than we do.

Our crime rates simply do not justify our incarceration rates, especially blacks. Many blacks in prison are really political prisoners more than they are serious criminals.

When I seriously considered singlehandling a sailboat in the Caribbean, I looked into taking a gun or two with me. I came to the conclusion that is simply wasn't worth all the additional hassles when sailing outside of US waters. Many countries have very draconian laws and treat anybody with firearms as potential troublemakers. And if you do not declare your weapons and they find them, you are really in trouble. They will likely sentence you to a lengthy prison term and confiscate your sailboat.

Rank Countries Amount # 1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
# 2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
# 3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
# 4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
# 5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
# 6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
# 7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
# 8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
# 9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
# 10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
# 11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
# 12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
# 13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
# 14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
# 15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
# 16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
# 17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
# 18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
# 19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
# 20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
# 21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
# 22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
# 23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
# 25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
# 26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
# 27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
# 28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
# 29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
# 30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
# 31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
# 32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
# 33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
# 34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
# 35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
# 36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people
# 37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
# 38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
# 39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
# 40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
# 41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
# 42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
# 43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
# 44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
# 45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people
# 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
# 47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
# 48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
# 49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
# 50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
# 51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
# 52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
# 53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
# 54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
# 55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
# 56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
# 57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
# 58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
# 59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
# 60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
# 61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
# 62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people

Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people

I took the liberty if copying that first linked source (the second is rather irrelevant as it isn't concerned with violent crimes). I'm not sure if being "only" being 24th is something to revel in, considering nos. 1-23.

"Many countries have very draconian laws and treat anybody with firearms as potential troublemakers."

Hm, now why would that be? Might it be because anybody with firearms is a potential troublemaker? (The keyword being potential.)

FWIW, A lack of gun rights doesn't stop children getting stabbed by other children at school.

Intesting diversion, which I'll gladly respond to: I live in a country where weapons aren't allowed to be carried by private persons. We have very few children getting stabbed at school. (In fact I can't remember the last time anything like that happened.) Children carrying weapons are likely to get expelled from school. It doesn't happen often, because children don't carry - because it's illegal.

 

[Dachs]

All weapons should be legalized with the exceptions of WMDs, Rocket Launchers, Biological weapons (if not included with WMDs), Genetically engineered Velociraptors and Space weapons (armed satellites and space ships/stations. And yes I'm being deadly serious here.

Velociraptors are tiny little buggers that aren't really that frightening. You probably mean Utahraptor or Deinonychus.

 

[bhsup]

Well, SCOTUS did do that ridiculous thing with marijuana stamps... That wasn't much better than banning ink while allowing presses.

 

[bhsup]

Interesting how people always fail to acknowledge that the Constitution was written for different times, for a nation at war - or rather a nation in revolt.

If you are referring to the US Constitution, it was written in 1787, after we'd made peace with the United Kingdom. We were no longer in revolt and were not at war with anyone when it was written. You're thinking of the Continental Congress, which didn't write the Constitution.

If you're referring to the Missouri Constitution, the latest one was originally written in 1945, but is heavily influenced by our 1875 Constitution. And Missouri hasn't been at war with Kansas since the Civil War ended.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm not sure if being "only" being 24th is something to revel in, considering nos. 1-23.

I wouldn't exactly characterize it as something to "revel in", but it certainly directly contradicts your previous statement:

...have one of the highest crime rates in the world...

I guess you should have said something like "has a very high violent crime rate when compared with most Western or Central European countries".

Hm, now why would that be? Might it be because anybody with firearms is a potential troublemaker? (The keyword being potential.)

They are also a potential law enforcers. (The keyword being the same.)

Access to weapons doesn't make people violent criminals. This can be readily seen by checking out virtually any kitchen in the world.

 

[Labtec600]

The problem is once you have a gun, you can shoot someone and youu're more likely to get in a violent-related crime.

Logic fail.



Where does this idea come from that a gun suddenly transforms normal law abiding people into violent people? Don't you think it's that the person is already a violent person BEFORE getting their hands on a gun?

There isn't a bunch of massacres every year in the woods during hunting season. There isn't a bunch of massacres every day at shooting ranges.

 

[GinandTonic]

I wish I could have a gun. Rather than the unreasonable demands wanted from the state if I wanted one in the UK. I'd feel 10x more safe.

It's very easy to get a shotgun if you want one. A lot easier than getting a car.

Logic fail.



Where does this idea come from that a gun suddenly transforms normal law abiding people into violent people? Don't you think it's that the person is already a violent person BEFORE getting their hands on a gun?

There isn't a bunch of massacres every year in the woods during hunting season. There isn't a bunch of massacres every day at shooting ranges.

Far as I know there has never been a student enacting a school massacre in the UK. PTS guy started shooting a school in the 90's and 18 kids died. After that the gun laws were tightened and when a skitzo attacked a nursery a few years ago in the absence of a gun he tried to do so with a machete causing few casualties - even the teacher survived, albeit with her arms cut to hell defending the sprogs.

 

[Camikaze]

Intesting diversion, which I'll gladly respond to: I live in a country where weapons aren't allowed to be carried by private persons. We have very few children getting stabbed at school. (In fact I can't remember the last time anything like that happened.) Children carrying weapons are likely to get expelled from school. It doesn't happen often, because children don't carry - because it's illegal.

That's exactly the same as here, pretty much. But a kid was still stabbed to death at a school I think it was last week. However, that is a freakishly rare occurrence, and it can hardly be used as an argument that restricting guns is useless because kids will just stab people anyway.

 

[Quackers]

It's very easy to get a shotgun if you want one. A lot easier than getting a car.



Far as I know there has never been a student enacting a school massacre in the UK. PTS guy started sniping a school in the 80's and lots of kids died. Skitzo attacked a nursery a few years ago, but in the absence of a gun he tried to do so with a machete with few casualties - even the teacher survived, albeit with her arms cut to hell defending the sprogs.

The fact that you need to store the gun in a metal safe attached to a wall or grounded to the floor and store ammunition elsewhwere (can't keep the gun loaded) means the primary reason for having a gun (self-defence in my case) is worthless.

 

[Disgustipated]

student massacres? They didn't get those guns legally. They got them from their fathers in most cases.

Which brings up the issue of owning guns if you have kids which may not be the point of the thread, so I won't derail it.

I wish we didn't have guns in the U.S., but I consider myself a realist. Getting rid of guns from law abiding citizens will put us as the mercy of the gangs. Gangs are a problem where I live. The police simply cannot be there to protect you.

Most robberies are not home invasions for a reason. The threat of being shot to death. Yes we have high crime in the U.S. but most are robberies of convenience stores etc., because they know there is almost no chance of getting shot during a robbery of a business. It's an easy mark.

As for why we have such high crime in the U.S., it has to deal with culture, rather than guns. We have this violent culture in the U.S. that I don't like. I don't like how the media is fascinated with outlaws like Billie the Kid, Dillenger, Bonnie and Clyde etc. And now days you see movies where the gangster life is glamorized. I don't know why our culture is so violent, but it is.

 

[Labtec600]

Far as I know there has never been a student enacting a school massacre in the UK. PTS guy started shooting a school in the 90's and 18 kids died. After that the gun laws were tightened and when a skitzo attacked a nursery a few years ago in the absence of a gun he tried to do so with a machete causing few casualties - even the teacher survived, albeit with her arms cut to hell defending the sprogs.

Whats your point and it's relevance to what I said?

 

[GinandTonic]

Logic fail.



Where does this idea come from that a gun suddenly transforms normal law abiding people into violent people? Don't you think it's that the person is already a violent person BEFORE getting their hands on a gun?

There isn't a bunch of massacres every year in the woods during hunting season. There isn't a bunch of massacres every day at shooting ranges.

Far as I know there has never been a student enacting a school massacre in the UK. PTS guy started shooting a school in the 90's and 18 kids died. After that the gun laws were tightened and when a skitzo attacked a nursery a few years ago in the absence of a gun he tried to do so with a machete causing few casualties - even the teacher survived, albeit with her arms cut to hell defending the sprogs.

Whats your point and it's relevance to what I said?

School massacre in the UK with guns kills 18. School massacre in the UK with machete doesnt even rate a wiki page I can find.

Easy access to concealable guns makes someone going postal in a school vastly more deadly.

 

[JohnRM]

That'd be a false sense of safety then. People owning guns have a higher chance of getting involvd in violent crimes than people who don't own guns. Just like driving a 'safe car' induces people to less safe driving, I suppose...

And yet the US, where guns are legal, have one of the highest crime rates in the world and just about the largest prison population.

I'd love to see that claim susbstantiated with some hard data, for once.

 

[bhsup]

It really irritates me when people compare crimes rates and try to link it to guns when I personally think it has a lot more to do with the fact that we're pretty successfully integrating a crap load of different cultures. The higher crime rate is, I believe, more due to that than anything else.

 

[Disgustipated]

wouldn't that mean we are unsuccessfully integrating all those cultures? But yes I agree.

 

[JohnRM]

In the world that we live in, I am in support of the right to bear arms. I do not, however, think that it is fair to attempt to interpret the meaning of a document that was written before the advent of assault rifles, semi-autos, and even bolt-action weapons. There is just no sense in arguing the what the founders meant by it. They could not possibly have forseen the development of methods of war over the coming centuries and if they had, you can be sure that the second amendment would have been followed up with a huge, 'BUT'.

 

[Labtec600]

School massacre in the UK with guns kills 18. School massacre in the UK with machete doesnt even rate a wiki page I can find.

Easy access to concealable guns makes someone going postal in a school vastly more deadly.

And no proof that it was the gun that caused the kid to do it.

 

[Arwon]

It's almost certain that those crime statistics are not in any way comparable between country. Methodology and reporting and classification differ massively across countries.

 

[Mad Man]

Velociraptors are tiny little buggers that aren't really that frightening. You probably mean Utahraptor or Deinonychus.

There not too tiny they were about the size of dogs and your missing the fundamental point "Genetically altering animals for use as weapons is a big nono", not only is it cruel to the animal your experimenting on but why would the average person possibly need with a shark with legs and lungs?